Post: #26

(02-10-2012 02:59 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 02:25 PM)MSW2007 Wrote:  I love it when the upper tax brackets bitch about how they pay 80% of the taxes in this country. As they well should, owning 80% of the wealth!

* Actual statistics may vary, but you get the point.

Don't tell me you're one of those people that thinks being successful and wealthy means you're evil and greedy.

You think just because another man needs something that means you owe him?

I hate this mentality.

Property rights and the ability to own your own wealth without fear of the gov't seizing it are a joke in this country.

I liked Ayn Rand when I was in middle school too.

Post: #27

(02-10-2012 02:59 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 02:25 PM)MSW2007 Wrote:  I love it when the upper tax brackets bitch about how they pay 80% of the taxes in this country. As they well should, owning 80% of the wealth!

* Actual statistics may vary, but you get the point.

Don't tell me you're one of those people that thinks being successful and wealthy means you're evil and greedy.

You think just because another man needs something that means you owe him?

I hate this mentality.

Property rights and the ability to own your own wealth without fear of the gov't seizing it are a joke in this country.

People like you just decide they're owed more and politicians buy your vote by promising more entitlement benefits to people that are poor for a reason. It's not the republican party's job to make poor people fiscally responsible. The democrats aren't doing a goddamn thing to foster the growth of business (the only thing that can be done) and before you talk about higher education (joke, if everyone has a college degree it's as useful as a highschool diploma) consider that has to be paid for too. And that is an entitlement program by the time taxes are paid by people at the point of a gun.

I'm not rich, but I want to be one day, and setting an arbitrary barrier on income levels of what is "rich" is the quickest way to make sure no one ever crosses it.

Yes Gmanifesto, American Exceptionalism is real. We were the country that coined the phrase "to make money" through ingenuity and hard work.

If you consider the wealth we CREATE (not steal from other countries like so many liberals like to howl) that alone is exceptional.

If you look at the science our country produces, it is exceptional

Our culture in music and entertainment pervades all over the world more than any other place. Exceptional

Our performance in the Olympics.

I could go on and on, all this was not BUILT on the redistribution of wealth stolen at the point of a gun to give entitlement programs to capable people.

Corporations are not "evil" for making a profit. Man is not "evil" for making a profit. Making money is not "evil".

And if you want to be real about it. All of these companies that are doing malicious bullshit are using laws the gov't put into place like billy clubs to beat back competition and petition politicians to put stupid barriers up so more people can't enter the market.

This is not a free country any longer, and that is what made it great.

People like you need to stop dick-riding the super-wealthy and WAKE THE FUCK UP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsL6mKxtOlQ&feature=fvst

Quote:But there’s a reason. There’s a reason. There’s a reason for this, there’s a reason education SUCKS, and it’s the same reason it will never, ever, EVER be fixed.

It’s never going to get any better, don’t look for it, be happy with what you’ve got.

Because the owners, the owners of this country don't want that. I'm talking about the real owners now, the BIG owners! The Wealthy… the REAL owners! The big wealthy business interests that control things and make all the important decisions.

Forget the politicians. They are irrelevant. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don't. You have no choice! You have OWNERS! They OWN YOU. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought, and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies, so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. They got you by the balls.

They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying, lobbying, to get what they want. Well, we know what they want. They want more for themselves and less for everybody else, but I'll tell you what they don’t want:

They don’t want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don’t want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking. They’re not interested in that. That doesn’t help them. Thats against their interests.

Thats right. They don’t want people who are smart enough to sit around a kitchen table and think about how badly they’re getting fucked by a system that threw them overboard 30 fucking years ago. They don’t want that!

You know what they want? They want obedient workers. Obedient workers, people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork. And just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly shitty jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits, the end of overtime and vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it, and now they’re coming for your Social Security money. They want your retirement money. They want it back so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street, and you know something? They’ll get it. They’ll get it all from you sooner or later cause they own this fucking place! Its a big club, and you ain’t in it! You, and I, are not in the big club.

By the way, its the same big club they use to beat you over the head with all day long when they tell you what to believe. All day long beating you over the head with their media telling you what to believe, what to think and what to buy. The table has tilted folks. The game is rigged and nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care! Good honest hard-working people; white collar, blue collar it doesn’t matter what color shirt you have on. Good honest hard-working people continue, these are people of modest means, continue to elect these rich cock suckers who don’t give a fuck about you….they don’t give a fuck about you… they don’t give a FUCK about you.

They don’t care about you at all… at all… AT ALL. And nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care. Thats what the owners count on. The fact that Americans will probably remain willfully ignorant of the big red, white and blue dick thats being jammed up their assholes everyday, because the owners of this country know the truth.

Its called the American Dream,because you have to be asleep to believe it.

- George Carlin

Post: #28

(02-10-2012 03:01 PM)JayMillz Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 02:47 PM)Brian Wrote:  so the reason people are in jail is because of the prison industrial complex, not because, you know, they committed crimes?

How do you get this from what I wrote?? However, the truth of the matter is that prisons are big business in the USA, which is why the USA now has publicly traded companies (e.g., corrections corporation of america, geo group, etc.) building prisons, even some on "speculation," and operating prisons, where the more inmates they house - the more profit they earn.

Right now, Republican Governor Rick Scott Walker in Florida is trying to turn over 16,000 inmates to publically traded companies. You think these companies don't have an incentive to do things like take away "good time credits" so they can keep their for-profit prisons full? You think these wall street companies don't lobby for tougher sentencing laws to increase incarceration?

I'm not saying there aren't bad people that NEED to be locked up, but don't believe that there isn't an economic incentive to lock people up as well. The problem is - jurisdictions are just starting to realize how much it REALLY costs to keep people locked up and the resources eatin up.

I think you are better off financially if you privatize the prison system so that you dont have prison guards retiring at 43 with full pension for life.

Post: #29

(02-10-2012 02:59 PM)Fisto Wrote:  Don't tell me you're one of those people that thinks being successful and wealthy means you're evil and greedy.

You think just because another man needs something that means you owe him?

I hate this mentality.

Re-read my post. I merely asserted that the upper classes should pay taxes in accordance with the amount of wealth they control.

Hell, I'm not even saying that they should pay a higher tax rate. Just that if one group controls X percentage of the wealth, then their tax dollars should make up X percent of the tax base.

(02-10-2012 03:06 PM)Fisto Wrote:  The reason states are privatizing prisons is because the state can't pay for it and companies have found a way to be profitable.

Private Prisons Found to Offer Little in Savings

Post: #30

curtis and gringo

Cue the liberal bullshit and insults. I'm out. You'll always be poor because you've got no integrity or work ethic. The best you can hope for is collectivist statism and then everyone will be poor. Losers.

Post: #31

(02-10-2012 03:06 PM)Fisto Wrote:  Jay, that's crap.

The reason states are privatizing prisons is because the state can't pay for it and companies have found a way to be profitable.

The evidence doesn't support your assertion. Florida, for instance, is a "pay for play" state and there is a direct correlation between contract awards and lobbying. In a state like Florida, prisons are actually being closed because the inmate population is down.

As far as the private prison industry, there is a much higher rate of violence, rape, abuse and inmate recidivism. In addition, there isn't any conclusive evidence that supports the notion of cost savings.

I would be lying if I said govenment run prisons don't have their problems too, but the private industry's track record is far worse. Besides the constitution issues, one must also consider the perverse incentives in increasing profits through housing more inmates.

Post: #32

(02-10-2012 03:14 PM)MSW2007 Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 02:59 PM)Fisto Wrote:  Don't tell me you're one of those people that thinks being successful and wealthy means you're evil and greedy.

You think just because another man needs something that means you owe him?

I hate this mentality.

Re-read my post. I merely asserted that the upper classes should pay taxes in accordance with the amount of wealth they control.

Hell, I'm not even saying that they should pay a higher tax rate. Just that if one group controls X percentage of the wealth, then their tax dollars should make up X percent of the tax base.

(02-10-2012 03:06 PM)Fisto Wrote:  The reason states are privatizing prisons is because the state can't pay for it and companies have found a way to be profitable.

Private Prisons Found to Offer Little in Savings

Sounded like you were talking about the "progressive" tax rate which means because you make "more" you should have to pay "more"

And anyway I said the REASON states are privatizing prisons is because they can't pay for them.

Post: #33

(02-10-2012 03:10 PM)Brian Wrote:  I think you are better off financially if you privatize the prison system so that you dont have prison guards retiring at 43 with full pension for life.

This is a fantasy you must have because no CO retires at 43 with a full pension. You find me the jurisdiction that allows for that ... or are you just making up another stereo-type? Show me the evidence of a 43 retirement for a corrections officer with a full pension.

Post: #34

(02-10-2012 03:14 PM)Fisto Wrote:  curtis and gringo

Cue the liberal bullshit and insults. I'm out. You'll always be poor because you've got no integrity or work ethic. The best you can hope for is collectivist statism and then everyone will be poor. Losers.

You either didn't read what I had to say or had no rebuttal. Typical partisan hack. Drinking the Fox News kool-aid isn't going to get you membership to 'the club'.

Post: #35

(02-10-2012 03:17 PM)Fisto Wrote:  And anyway I said the REASON states are privatizing prisons is because they can't pay for them.

How do you conclude that when privatization is costing them more?

http://www.azauditor.gov/Reports/State_A.../10-08.pdf

http://www.fcfep.org/attachments/2010040...%20Prisons

Post: #36

(02-10-2012 03:16 PM)JayMillz Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 03:06 PM)Fisto Wrote:  Jay, that's crap.

The reason states are privatizing prisons is because the state can't pay for it and companies have found a way to be profitable.

The evidence doesn't support your assertion. Florida, for instance, is a "pay for play" state and there is a direct correlation between contract awards and lobbying. In a state like Florida, prisons are actually being closed because the inmate population is down.

As far as the private prison industry, there is a much higher rate of violence, rape, abuse and inmate recidivism. In addition, there isn't any conclusive evidence that supports the notion of cost savings.

I would be lying if I said govenment run prisons don't have their problems too, but the private industry's track record is far worse. Besides the constitution issues, one must also consider the perverse incentives in increasing profits through housing more inmates.

I get that, but I thought you were saying it's big business and blaming prisons for their being more prisoners. Prisons aren't arresting people for crimes.

And this is my point, the lobbying and other gov't favors being handed out needs to stop.

I'll concede the point and take your word that the private prisons aren't doing a "good" job (really a separate issue), but I will also say that's because it get's paid whether it does a good job or not. And that is a gov't meddling issue.

Post: #37

(02-10-2012 03:14 PM)Fisto Wrote:  curtis and gringo

Cue the liberal bullshit and insults. I'm out. You'll always be poor because you've got no integrity or work ethic. The best you can hope for is collectivist statism and then everyone will be poor. Losers.

Yeah my bad on the snarkiness, but it really is true that the whole "rich people legitimately earned every penny they own, the poor deserve what they get, and nobody owes them anything" idea sounds very appealing on a superficial level, but if you examine it closely it's very simplistic and really isn't a defensible political philosophy (ironically, much like communism). When you make a blanket statement like that you're ignoring all sorts of objections, caveats, constraints, and side issues that tend to undermine it. There are libertarian political philosophers (although they're a minority) but pretty much nobody who thinks seriously about these issues endorses that kind of Atlas Shrugged-esque reasoning.

Post: #38

(02-10-2012 02:41 PM)gringochileno Wrote:  This is also evident from the observation that the US has much a higher post-tax-and-transfer-poverty rate than other OECD countries despite having an average poverty rate before taxes and transfers:

This is, of course, a completely misleading graph designed purposely to show the USA in the worst possible light.

To make a true apples to apples comparison, you would need to compare both median income and median purchasing power, and throw out countries like Norway, that subsizes its citizens incomes with huge oil revenues.

Really, the question you should be asking yourself is this. Would you rather be poor in the UK (8th on the list in this highly skewed analysis) or poor in the USA?

Post: #39

(02-10-2012 03:21 PM)ccurtis189 Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 03:14 PM)Fisto Wrote:  curtis and gringo

Cue the liberal bullshit and insults. I'm out. You'll always be poor because you've got no integrity or work ethic. The best you can hope for is collectivist statism and then everyone will be poor. Losers.

You either didn't read what I had to say or had no rebuttal. Typical partisan hack. Drinking the Fox News kool-aid isn't going to get you membership to 'the club'.

Yeah you said something about "dick riding" which made you not worth reading after that.

Post: #40

I can understand not making a "blanket" statement about how deserving/undeserving for the rich and poor BUT when you are poor you just HAVE to understand that you will have to live you life in probably a more "straight and narrow and non-liberal way" than your already rich counterparts. I just do not get when I see folks complaining about not being able to feed their families and they have a friggin' factory job that pays no more than $35,000/year and they have 3 kids.

I mean DUH?...did you think it would be a walk in the park with a GED and 3 kids?

Or that clown complaining about there are no jobs in his/her college major. Who the hell told you to major in New Zealand Studies anyway?

Post: #41

Personally I think it's silly how poor people don't have to pay taxes. I'm not someone who is remotely sympathetic to Western people who are poor. Western poor would be confused for rich in many parts of the world. If your not successful you have no one to blame but yourself. That is what I believe in everything from girls to work.

Post: #42

(02-10-2012 03:35 PM)UrbanNerd Wrote:  I can understand not making a "blanket" statement about how deserving/undeserving for the rich and poor BUT when you are poor you just HAVE to understand that you will have to live you life in probably a more "straight and narrow and non-liberal way" than your already rich counterparts. I just do not get when I see folks complaining about not being able to feed their families and they have a friggin' factory job that pays no more than $35,000/year and they have 3 kids.

I mean DUH?...did you think it would be a walk in the park with a GED and 3 kids?

Or that clown complaining about there are no jobs in his/her college major. Who the hell told you to major in New Zealand Studies anyway?

I fully agree with this post.

Post: #43

(02-10-2012 03:26 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 03:16 PM)JayMillz Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 03:06 PM)Fisto Wrote:  Jay, that's crap.

The reason states are privatizing prisons is because the state can't pay for it and companies have found a way to be profitable.

The evidence doesn't support your assertion. Florida, for instance, is a "pay for play" state and there is a direct correlation between contract awards and lobbying. In a state like Florida, prisons are actually being closed because the inmate population is down.

As far as the private prison industry, there is a much higher rate of violence, rape, abuse and inmate recidivism. In addition, there isn't any conclusive evidence that supports the notion of cost savings.

I would be lying if I said govenment run prisons don't have their problems too, but the private industry's track record is far worse. Besides the constitution issues, one must also consider the perverse incentives in increasing profits through housing more inmates.

I get that, but I thought you were saying it's big business and blaming prisons for their being more prisoners. Prisons aren't arresting people for crimes.

And this is my point, the lobbying and other gov't favors being handed out needs to stop.

I'll concede the point and take your word that the private prisons aren't doing a "good" job (really a separate issue), but I will also say that's because it get's paid whether it does a good job or not. And that is a gov't meddling issue.

Privately run prisons doesn't sit right with me.

Post: #44

(02-10-2012 03:35 PM)UrbanNerd Wrote:  I can understand not making a "blanket" statement about how deserving/undeserving for the rich and poor BUT when you are poor you just HAVE to understand that you will have to live you life in probably a more "straight and narrow and non-liberal way" than your already rich counterparts. I just do not get when I see folks complaining about not being able to feed their families and they have a friggin' factory job that pays no more than $35,000/year and they have 3 kids.

I mean DUH?...did you think it would be a walk in the park with a GED and 3 kids?

Or that clown complaining about there are no jobs in his/her college major. Who the hell told you to major in New Zealand Studies anyway?

Goddamn thankyou. Years ago there was a strike from the grocery store workers in California, some lady who was being paid 18 dollars/hour to scan bananas actually said "I can't buy a house only making this much, we're on strike till we get a raise!" (paraphrase)

Can you believe that shit? Yeah, that income gap is there for a reason, and it's not the fault of the evil rich anymore than it's the fault of the evil middle class.

Post: #45

(02-10-2012 03:35 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 03:21 PM)ccurtis189 Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 03:14 PM)Fisto Wrote:  curtis and gringo

Cue the liberal bullshit and insults. I'm out. You'll always be poor because you've got no integrity or work ethic. The best you can hope for is collectivist statism and then everyone will be poor. Losers.

You either didn't read what I had to say or had no rebuttal. Typical partisan hack. Drinking the Fox News kool-aid isn't going to get you membership to 'the club'.

Yeah you said something about "dick riding" which made you not worth reading after that.

I just don't get how people who aren't rich worship the rich so much (and I'm talking REALLY rich) when these same people only care about themselves even if it means screwing everyone else over.

Post: #46

(02-10-2012 03:43 PM)ccurtis189 Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 03:35 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 03:21 PM)ccurtis189 Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 03:14 PM)Fisto Wrote:  curtis and gringo

Cue the liberal bullshit and insults. I'm out. You'll always be poor because you've got no integrity or work ethic. The best you can hope for is collectivist statism and then everyone will be poor. Losers.

You either didn't read what I had to say or had no rebuttal. Typical partisan hack. Drinking the Fox News kool-aid isn't going to get you membership to 'the club'.

Yeah you said something about "dick riding" which made you not worth reading after that.

I just don't get how people who aren't rich worship the rich so much (and I'm talking REALLY rich) when these same people only care about themselves even if it means screwing everyone else over.

I don't worship any man. I just aspire to be wealthy one day. Tell me how many gov't entitlement programs these rich people (that are screwing people over) are using. So I guess they should have to pay their "fair share" for programs they don't use?

That "fair share" is the biggest buddy fucker of all. And personally, I'd like a fair tax type situation. I'm actually more concerned about the middle class.

Post: #47

(02-10-2012 03:34 PM)tenderman100 Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 02:41 PM)gringochileno Wrote:  This is also evident from the observation that the US has much a higher post-tax-and-transfer-poverty rate than other OECD countries despite having an average poverty rate before taxes and transfers:

This is, of course, a completely misleading graph designed purposely to show the USA in the worst possible light.

To make a true apples to apples comparison, you would need to compare both median income and median purchasing power, and throw out countries like Norway, that subsizes its citizens incomes with huge oil revenues.

Really, the question you should be asking yourself is this. Would you rather be poor in the UK (8th on the list in this highly skewed analysis) or poor in the USA?

Why would that be a better way of comparing the countries? Obviously countries with a higher per capita GDP are going to have more people above a given absolute income threshold even if they don't do as good of a job at reducing poverty (it's also not clear why you'd throw out Norway just because a large portion of its income comes from oil exports--lots of countries have export-driven economies). If you're trying to argue that having a more robust tax and transfer system causes the GDP level to be lower, then that just isn't supported by the evidence--long-run per capita GDP growth rates are comparable across the US and other OECD countries and do not correlate to the level of government expenditure.

Even if you don't buy any of that, though, the US's social expenditures are so low that I think the answer to your question would still be that it's better to be poor in most other OECD countries than it is in the US, even if you ignore differences in per capita GDP levels.

Post: #48

(02-10-2012 03:20 PM)JayMillz Wrote:  

(02-10-2012 03:10 PM)Brian Wrote:  I think you are better off financially if you privatize the prison system so that you dont have prison guards retiring at 43 with full pension for life.

This is a fantasy you must have because no CO retires at 43 with a full pension. You find me the jurisdiction that allows for that ... or are you just making up another stereo-type? Show me the evidence of a 43 retirement for a corrections officer with a full pension.

I cant speak for CO but my cousin retired from the NYFD with full pension at 43. If the FD is getting it the CO's aren't far behind.

Post: #49

(02-10-2012 03:37 PM)lavidaloca Wrote:  Personally I think it's silly how poor people don't have to pay taxes. I'm not someone who is remotely sympathetic to Western people who are poor. Western poor would be confused for rich in many parts of the world. If your not successful you have no one to blame but yourself. That is what I believe in everything from girls to work.

Wow, some people get it. You want to be rich - work your ass off, learn something (could be anything), start a business, and grow it. You can become very wealthy in this country more easily then any other country in the world, yet most people are just full of excuses. Heck, get a job at Subway making sandwiches for a couple years and learn the business. Save your pennies. Buy a franchise. Expand into multiple locations. Stop being the tenant, buy a shopping center with the income off the multiple units, and get super rich. But no one wants to pay their dues, they just want more free shit from the nanny state.

Post: #50

(02-10-2012 04:08 PM)Brian Wrote:  I cant speak for CO

Brian,you made a specific assertion about COs and I asked you for proof, and now you say you can't speak for COs?? Comparing correctional officers and NYFD is "apples to oranges," which is why there aren't for-profit, publicly traded companies operating fire departments.