Post: #1

There is a lot of talk about programming as a valuable skill for both being employed and going the self-employed route.

However, there were a lot of comp sci graduates that graduated during the tech bubble, switched careers, and are now regretting not pursuing it further because there is demand now. I wanted to see some discussion on this, either here or elsewhere.

Granted, there are many other factors to consider.

One, people really overvalued tech stocks, including venture capitalists and the general public. This is what created the bubble.

The other thing is that IT is a huge field, like anything else, so different niches have different demand.

I am trying to learn programming after work, but this was just something on my mind. Either way, I will continue because even if it becomes saturated or devalued, it would be a good skill to have to automate things and make my life easier, which could be potential products to sell and make some money.

Post: #2

This should be in lifestyle...

Programming skills will becoming increasingly valuable but not for CS majors. There's a huge tech bubble right now. It looks very 2001ish but less Pet.com ads so hopefully things wont crash as hard when it bursts. If your only skill is programming you'll be SOL when that happens.

On the other hand knowing how to program is a huge asset is most other professional fields. Knowing how to write simple scripts and and basic automation skills is a huge boon if you're an engineer. I'm one of the few scientists who knows how to program at a largish chemical company and I'm viewed like a magical wizard. My last project is making the company about $100k/month. But here's the catch - a CS major never would have been able to do it. It was the combination of engineering/science skills AND the programming that made me valuable.

Post: #3

(06-25-2014 07:53 PM)Ensam Wrote:  This should be in lifestyle...

Programming skills will becoming increasingly valuable but not for CS majors. There's a huge tech bubble right now. It looks very 2001ish but less Pet.com ads so hopefully things wont crash as hard when it bursts. If your only skill is programming you'll be SOL when that happens.

On the other hand knowing how to program is a huge asset is most other professional fields. Knowing how to write simple scripts and and basic automation skills is a huge boon if you're an engineer. I'm one of the few scientists who knows how to program at a largish chemical company and I'm viewed like a magical wizard. My last project is making the company about $100k/month. But here's the catch - a CS major never would have been able to do it. It was the combination of engineering/science skills AND the programming that made me valuable.

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. I have a chemistry background and I thought it would be a good addition.

Post: #4

For science I would recommend Python with the Scipy environment.
In your area of expertise, you are not just a programmer but an asset who is invaluable.

Post: #5

3 examples of personal friends and classmates that got jobs with CS degrees and programming (all within the last year or two):

For the employment side:

1) Zero work experience right out of college got hired to Microsoft - $110k salary + bonus

2) Started at $78k with zero work experience 1.5 years later moved to a new job now at $120k.

3) Started out of college making $60k+. After 3 years experience (steady raises) then taking a year off to travel Italy and now back with a 1 year gap in his resume is making $150k after a recent raise.

Myself: A summer ago I was living on the West Coast. I put my resume out for downtown Chicago specifically. I demanded the jobs be in logistically easy places for small commutes for game purposes. I flew in and had 6 interviews over 2 days with only a 3 week notice of talking to recruiters. I got 2 jobs offers. Didn't take them moved to SB.

They would all be absolutely hounded by recruiters day and night if they put their resumes out for any major tech area in America (the entire West Coast, Austin, Chicago, NYC)

For the entrepreneurial side the sky is limit.

We don't even have wearable devices and robots in society yet.

----------

Nowadays as regards to tech bubbles - if a tech bubble bursts everyone bursts. Tech has become a strong enough industry to rival the Financial industry.

All money will go into tech for both consumers and business as time goes on doesn't matter what industry you are in.

This isn't the same as a "pet.com" failing. Tech is starting to take on physical reality and all of it needs software.

Post: #6

I guess if you're in the right situation it can pay. However, I have a physics degree and can program in C but I never earned a dime from it. At least not yet. Maybe that will change.

Post: #7

(06-25-2014 09:58 PM)Travesty444 Wrote:  3 examples of personal friends and classmates that got jobs with CS degrees and programming (all within the last year or two):

For the employment side:

1) Zero work experience right out of college got hired to Microsoft - $110k salary + bonus

2) Started at $78k with zero work experience 1.5 years later moved to a new job now at $120k.

3) Started out of college making $60k+. After 3 years experience (steady raises) then taking a year off to travel Italy and now back with a 1 year gap in his resume is making $150k after a recent raise.

Myself: A summer ago I was living on the West Coast. I put my resume out for downtown Chicago specifically. I demanded the jobs be in logistically easy places for small commutes for game purposes. I flew in and had 6 interviews over 2 days with only a 3 week notice of talking to recruiters. I got 2 jobs offers. Didn't take them moved to SB.

They would all be absolutely hounded by recruiters day and night if they put their resumes out for any major tech area in America (the entire West Coast, Austin, Chicago, NYC)

For the entrepreneurial side the sky is limit.

We don't even have wearable devices and robots in society yet.

----------

Nowadays as regards to tech bubbles - if a tech bubble bursts everyone bursts. Tech has become a strong enough industry to rival the Financial industry.

All money will go into tech for both consumers and business as time goes on doesn't matter what industry you are in.

This isn't the same as a "pet.com" failing. Tech is starting to take on physical reality and all of it needs software.

CS degree + what programming experience?

There's a huge range of programming skills. Which ones are in the $$?

Post: #8

as someone who was a programmer ( never that good) there are two things that work against you:

1) There is no guild to protect you. It takes years to get a license to practice my health care profession. Someone could be twice as good as me and could not possibly get hired because they only hire licensed people. Politically, many may not like this but it is the reality. Older professions, unlike programming, like medicine, law, real estate agents, have barriers to entry that keep people out.

2) As you age new languages get harder to learn and there is age discrimination for sure which members of this board don't encounter because they're under 40. I've had friends go in for job interviews who are in their 40s and the interviewer was 25, and the job seeker knew right off they were blown out. Cool young people want to be around young cool people.

You can make a LOT if you get situated right-- If you really knew Python, or whatever is hot now, you could make enough in the next 10 years to retire probably-- if you are 25.

However, for the most part, unless you are really elite, only programmers that get stock options make what the psychiatrists where I work (California) do: 300K per year plus. It is 100% impossible to get hired there without a license; and they will hire ANYONE with a license who is not completely incoherent.

All of the following doctors I work with are from foreign ( lower status) medical schools: There are very fat older women who are not native speakers of English, VERY old ( late 70s) doctors who are not native speakers of English. All the employers care about is the license. NONE of these people would EVER get hired at Facebook or Google or any cool SF startup even as a janitor. They are hired immediately in health care for 300k+, there are even signing bonuses of 100K. The guild protects itself. (American Medical Association.) Admittedly, that is the most successful guild in the country probably.

The human body doesn't change, except incrementally as new things like nano tech therapy emerge-- still the millennia old systems-- heart, lungs, etc-- remain exactly the same. New information found is incremental.

Technology by its very nature changes quickly and continuously.

No one is going to abandon the heart in the near future for some other "app".

A somewhat similar system is in place for actuaries. There are levels of testing you pass. Once a system like that is in place it gives you much more job security as the companies will generally stop hiring people who _haven't_ passed the guild system of testing. Why take the risk?

Post: #9

so, go into health care? doesn't it take 10 years to become qualified in anything commanding 100k plus?

Post: #10

Technology is a rapidly growing field, so there will always be demand for programmers and engineers. I started programming around 13 since pretty much everyone else in my family was an engineer of some sort(my dad and uncle worked for IBM as software engineers), so naturally, I picked up programming as well.

I'm a major in comp sci. and I've already worked as an intern for two companies making well over $25/hr as a part-time entry level web developer. If you can, try to learn a mainstream language like Java. A lot of companies want Java programmers and they'll gladly accept someone who has Java on his resume rather than say, Python or C.

Post: #11

(06-25-2014 11:39 PM)2014 Wrote:  

(06-25-2014 09:58 PM)Travesty444 Wrote:  3 examples of personal friends and classmates that got jobs with CS degrees and programming (all within the last year or two):

For the employment side:

1) Zero work experience right out of college got hired to Microsoft - $110k salary + bonus

2) Started at $78k with zero work experience 1.5 years later moved to a new job now at $120k.

3) Started out of college making $60k+. After 3 years experience (steady raises) then taking a year off to travel Italy and now back with a 1 year gap in his resume is making $150k after a recent raise.

Myself: A summer ago I was living on the West Coast. I put my resume out for downtown Chicago specifically. I demanded the jobs be in logistically easy places for small commutes for game purposes. I flew in and had 6 interviews over 2 days with only a 3 week notice of talking to recruiters. I got 2 jobs offers. Didn't take them moved to SB.

They would all be absolutely hounded by recruiters day and night if they put their resumes out for any major tech area in America (the entire West Coast, Austin, Chicago, NYC)

For the entrepreneurial side the sky is limit.

We don't even have wearable devices and robots in society yet.

----------

Nowadays as regards to tech bubbles - if a tech bubble bursts everyone bursts. Tech has become a strong enough industry to rival the Financial industry.

All money will go into tech for both consumers and business as time goes on doesn't matter what industry you are in.

This isn't the same as a "pet.com" failing. Tech is starting to take on physical reality and all of it needs software.

CS degree + what programming experience?

There's a huge range of programming skills. Which ones are in the $$?

I outlined guys above getting their first programming gigs with a CS degree and no work experience, same as me. If you have your own code portfolio that is decent you are even more solid.

The $ languages and skills are:

C# / .NET
Swift (Apples brandspanking new language for IOS apps)
Java (Android apps)
Ruby on Rails
Node.js (Javascript)
C language - firmware and the like

Post: #12

(06-25-2014 11:47 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  2) As you age new languages get harder to learn and there is age discrimination for sure which members of this board don't encounter because they're under 40. I've had friends go in for job interviews who are in their 40s and the interviewer was 25, and the job seeker knew right off they were blown out. Cool young people want to be around young cool people.

Languages are stealing from each other and becoming similar as they add all the more beneficial parts to a better sum. C# and Swift etc...

I think the age thing is overblown, it is your job to keep up with technology if you are a dev. If you have 15-20 years experience and know your shit people will want you as long as you stay current. If you hang around other devs all day at your job it is almost impossible not to stay current, they talk shop all day at work, you couldn't escape being updated on trends if you wanted to.

You don't get paychecks as a M.D. until late 20s? With a ton of debt usually right? And you lose most of your 20s to all that schooling.

With C.S. and programming if you worked your ass off you could probably get a B.S. in 3 years with a decent portfolio and get a $85k+ job out of the gates with relative ease. $100k+ if you are great. That is at 21 years old. Let the money compound what you save and/or get entrepreneurial and location independent it is a new ball game.

Going to medical school I think you would have to love being a doctor all those years.

If half your reason is for the money vs. time C.S. is not a bad degree, in fact it may be the best out of the traditional degrees.

In fact if you are not passionate about being a Doctor, Lawyer, Engineer, Accountant insert money job here. I would definitely choose C.S. for the location independence and opportunities all over the Earth.

Post: #13

Is a degree in C.S. really necessary?

Could an MA or PhD in another field cross over? What if they CAN ACTUALLY CODE, would that be enough, or is having a CS degree imperative?

Post: #14

The skills will stay in demand if you keep them up to date and sharp.

Its like anything, if you're good at it it will make money.

I work in IT&T with no degree, in a c level position so I know how it works.

Post: #15

(06-26-2014 02:49 AM)2014 Wrote:  Is a degree in C.S. really necessary?

Could an MA or PhD in another field cross over? What if they CAN ACTUALLY CODE, would that be enough, or is having a CS degree imperative?

No it is definitely not necessary. Although for getting your first development job I think most companies are more lenient to let a C.S. candidate with no experience come in.

I'd say if you are not C.S. / C.E. then your skills and portfolio need to be stronger than a C.S. candidate.

Once you have even 1 year of development experience then it really doesn't matter it is all about your skills and knowledge.

Just getting the first job with no prior experience can be tougher to find, but once you get in there are a ton of opportunities.

Post: #16

I am a software developer. I won't say much since iknowexactly has said it all. Find a software programming job that has very high barrier of entry; something like search engine algorithm, trading algorithm programs, artificial intelligence, etc. If you are building web apps or mobile apps, then good luck to you.

Post: #17

Python, Ruby on Rails, Django, JQuery, etc have low barrier of entry. You don't want to be in such jobs though they are hot now. Think long term instead of short term. If you can combine technical skill and business domain skill, that would be better since it gives you a little bit moat against competition. For example insurance domain knowledge plus Java technical skill will give you an upper hand over most Java developers.

Post: #18

Which languages are free to download? And where?

The reason I ask is that I know that python is free since I took a class about it, and I am just wondering if any other languages are free. Currently, I am trying to get good at it since I did pretty bad in the class. Now, I really enjoy it and I am probably going to to stick with it.

Also, is C++ irrelevant? Some of the people I know that can program boast a lot that they know C++. But, I rarely see people here recommend C++ to others. I am probably still going to look into it since I find programming very interesting, but I don't want to heavily invest my time in it if it is not that important.

Also, as a Applied Math Major how could I get more experience in programming so that I will have a better chance in obtaining a job? Job recruiters always ask me if I have experience in programming after I tell them that I am a Math major.

Post: #19

(06-26-2014 07:19 PM)quino_16 Wrote:  Which languages are free to download? And where?

The reason I ask is that I know that python is free since I took a class about it, and I am just wondering if any other languages are free. Currently, I am trying to get good at it since I did pretty bad in the class. Now, I really enjoy it and I am probably going to to stick with it.

Also, is C++ irrelevant? Some of the people I know that can program boast a lot that they know C++. But, I rarely see people here recommend C++ to others. I am probably still going to look into it since I find programming very interesting, but I don't want to heavily invest my time in it if it is not that important.

Also, as a Applied Math Major how could I get more experience in programming so that I will have a better chance in obtaining a job? Job recruiters always ask me if I have experience in programming after I tell them that I am a Math major.

Vast majority of languages are free. Also vast majority of new cool technologies is open source software. Some stuff is somewhat platform-dependent, e.g. it's not as easy to develop iOS apps outside of Mac, the same with .NET and Windows.

As for where to download - Google is your friend. Also Mac OS X and most Linux distros come with plethora of languages pre-installed, e.g. Mac comes with Python, Ruby, PHP, Java out of the box. Every browser has JavaScript engine built in, also Chrome dev tools are excellent.

Python is an excellent choice for a beginner and also for a math major (SciPy, NumPy)

C/C++ is not used as much as before, still used for low level stuff, but can't recommend for a beginner. I grew up with C++ but haven't touched it in years. The reason it is not used is simply slower pace of development relative to higher level languages like Python, and it's also harder to find really good C programmers. C/C++ code will execute a lot faster, but the truth is that for majority of applications this is a non issue. Still, a lot (probably most) of the new cool technologies are actually developed in C/C++ (for speed reasons), so if you are extremely proficient C programmer you are set, but if you are a beginner I don't think it is the right choice to get productive quickly.

And yes, for a math major some programming is probably required for any relevant job, and with rising proficiency in programming your job opportunities will rise exponentially.

Post: #20

Programming is just problem solving. Once you learn some basic programming concepts like loops, ifs, variable types etc you can apply it to any other programming language. Honestly some of the best programmers I've met are mostly self taught. They have an extremely high interest level in the work so they have extremely high programming skills. People don't realize how much commitment it takes to be good at something.

Post: #21

If you want a job that pays a ton go into process engineering. With a chemistry background you could probably hack it at certain companies. It's somewhere between chemical engineering and chemistry depending on the position. Programming will definitely come in handy. Learning Python is a good place to start for just getting a feel for how modern programming languages work. The real money is in DCS, PLC and SCADA coding. The software can be a bit funky and outdated depending on the company but if you get good at it and build a reputation you can make bank. Helps if you learn some basic hardware/EE skills too. Most guys I know do it for 2-3 years at an established firm then go off and start consulting. Once you get a reputation for someone who can solve problems fast you can pretty much ask for anything you want. When a plant goes down due to a software/hardware fault the company is hemorrhaging cash and will pay top dollar to get their systems back online - every second counts. At one point my company was paying our Delta V guy $25k/month.

I should add - you have to be very good to command top dollar. Most process engineers make in the $70-80k range but they generally either know how to program or know how to design processes. Knowing how to do both can push you into the top tier.

Post: #22

The thing about programming to me is that you have to be good. I don't think that someone will be able to do a code academy course and then think they will be able to get a job. Of course, I might be wrong for something like an entry level but still...

Post: #23

(06-25-2014 07:35 PM)nomansland Wrote:  There is a lot of talk about programming as a valuable skill for both being employed and going the self-employed route.

However, there were a lot of comp sci graduates that graduated during the tech bubble, switched careers, and are now regretting not pursuing it further because there is demand now. I wanted to see some discussion on this, either here or elsewhere.

Granted, there are many other factors to consider.

One, people really overvalued tech stocks, including venture capitalists and the general public. This is what created the bubble.

The other thing is that IT is a huge field, like anything else, so different niches have different demand.

I am trying to learn programming after work, but this was just something on my mind. Either way, I will continue because even if it becomes saturated or devalued, it would be a good skill to have to automate things and make my life easier, which could be potential products to sell and make some money.

A) We are in a bubble.

B) Programming skills will be more and more valuable as robots replace humans in the workplace and the amount of data need to be real-time processed grow exponentially.

C) If you do it because it is trendy or will be valuable in the future, quit now.

If you didn't start programming in high school, you are too late.

If you were actually into it you would be pretty good at it way before the topic of picking up chicks entered your consciousness.

Before I get flamed here, it is a "red pill" of software development. Take it or leave it. The best developers started programming very early in life, in high school and some millenias even in primary school.

D) It will never become saturated as though there are a lot of programmers, the majority of them are total shit because they are in the game for money or career or the "startup dream".

Post: #24

(06-27-2014 06:00 PM)CaptainCrazy Wrote:  A) We are in a bubble.

B) Programming skills will be more and more valuable as robots replace humans in the workplace and the amount of data need to be real-time processed grow exponentially.

C) If you do it because it is trendy or will be valuable in the future, quit now.

If you didn't start programming in high school, you are too late.

If you were actually into it you would be pretty good at it way before the topic of picking up chicks entered your consciousness.

Before I get flamed here, it is a "red pill" of software development. Take it or leave it. The best developers started programming very early in life, in high school and some millenias even in primary school.

D) It will never become saturated as though there are a lot of programmers, the majority of them are total shit because they are in the game for money or career or the "startup dream".

A) We are indeed in a bubble

B) Programming skills will be commodities; thus less valuable as more and more frameworks are invented to make difficult tasks easy. Therefore, lowering the barrier of entry. Majority of software need out there is basically CRUD software, hence, Indian programmers can simply plug and play frameworks and build fast. High value software jobs such as high frequency trading algorithm, IT security, search engine algorithm will command premium.

C) I started programming very early (12 years old). Winning algorithm competitions. If you started late, there's no way for you to compete against me. The super talented ones I know started even earlier than me.

D) If you go into normal web apps, mobile apps, or any CRUD software programming, then it is already saturated with shit programmers. It's a race to the bottom in terms of price. If you're in high value work as mentioned in point B, then you're pretty much safe, but maybe not for long

Post: #25

(06-28-2014 12:08 AM)roid Wrote:  B) Programming skills will be commodities; thus less valuable as more and more frameworks are invented to make difficult tasks easy. Therefore, lowering the barrier of entry. Majority of software need out there is basically CRUD software, hence, Indian programmers can simply plug and play frameworks and build fast. High value software jobs such as high frequency trading algorithm, IT security, search engine algorithm will command premium.

(06-28-2014 12:08 AM)roid Wrote:  D) If you go into normal web apps, mobile apps, or any CRUD software programming, then it is already saturated with shit programmers. It's a race to the bottom in terms of price. If you're in high value work as mentioned in point B, then you're pretty much safe, but maybe not for long

I'd add "big data" to your list. Heavy algorithmic shit, parallel computing, stuff like that.

In terms of CRUD, frameworks and Indians, you get what you pay for. I wish all the good luck to those who outsource to India. I need more of people like that so they pay for cheap shit, get burned by it and go bust.

You can still get developers as good as in the states for 1/10 of the price but not in India.