Post: #1

I've just seen far too many exceptions to the rule; myself included.

Using myself as an example:

-30 something male
- 5'11
-185lbs at 15% body fat (well above average, but no fitness model)
-Slightly above mean average income (working in education)
-Slightly above average IQ
-Maybe a 6 out of 10 in the face.
-Decent conversational skills but i'm not the soul of a party
-Not well read in the 'game' and all this frame stuff tends to bore me so I only have a lose knowledge of it.

Basically I'm just a little above average at everything.

Anyway, the theory goes women only date across and up: and yet I've found myself with 7s and 8s (in terms of looks) over the years. I've dated wealthy women (they never pay more than half though, the fuckers) who earn twice as much as me. I've dated lecturers, bankers, and published authors. I've dated up and down, across, and everything in between. I've dated some of these women for weeks and one or two of them have lasted years.

All of this makes me question this whole notion of hypergamy. How can hypergamy exist when it is I who tends to date up?

I also disagree with this idea that men are hypogamous (people who date across and down): I've seen far too many men with women who 'out of their league'.

So dare I say it? Not All Women Are Like That.

And do not get me wrong, this is not white knighting, this is not some noble attempt to defend the nature of women to a group of gentleman on an internet forum. This is just a mere foray into theoretical discussion on the dating habits and preferences of both men and women. A discussion that which within this community had become a dogma, and not one for which is questioned and built upon.

Post: #2

There's the fundamental difference between overall and on average, and what the individual experiences.

I think the point that some people are making is that the direction society has headed in has massively opened up hypergamy. Imagine a society where all the marriages were arranged and sex out of wedlock was massive frowned on. The way people would act would be completely different to a modern millennial left or right swiping on their Iphone.

People's nature is hugely constrained by the society they live in. Hence why we don't bash people's heads in if they look at us askance anymore.

Post: #3

Women don't "only" date across and up.

They just want to fuck across and up, or need to believe they are.

Post: #4

I also think it's overblown. However, chicks tend to behave optimally when dating up. Hence, western men with girlfriends from SA or SEA. Those girls usually treat them very well, but not give "their own" men that same treatment. The prospect of that EU passport or green card is too much to not be on your best behavior. Same goes for wealthy western men dating middle class western women. Those girls will tend to bitch less.

That said, there are still countless examples to the contrary. I've witnessed that myself where a chick would pay for all of our meals out, would give me her car etc. But I think that just comes as a result of pleasuring them sexually.

Post: #5

You’re an 8.5 because of your game.

You have not disproven hypergamy. You have just demonstrated that a man’s value is not linked to Looks Money Status. (Which we knew)

Post: #6

(09-20-2018 07:47 AM)Montrose Wrote:  You have not disproven hypergamy. You have just demonstrated that a man’s value is not linked to Looks Money Status. (Which we knew)

I agree totally with Montrose. A man's value is a balance of his skills, you don't have to have all the points in a perk to succeed, rather to be able to adapt for what the situation needs. A rich girl may need some romantic adventure, a super hot girl may crave for someone who is ignoring her, etc, etc. The key of the game is to provide what they believe they need for a period of time (since women these days change their minds often).

Post: #7

You could be selling yourself short on your SMV. Also, it's possible these women you you thought were higher than you in SMV saw you as a beta provider.

Quote:The concepts of men who represent Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks are similarly part of this instinctual understanding of Hypergamy. These too are archetypes, but more so, they form the basis of more complex male archetypes (love me Vampire, fuck me Werewolf). They are the men women want to fuck and the men women want to be provided for by. And we can trace the root of these archetypes through our evolution and even the evolution of other primates. These Hypergamous archetypes then manifest themselves in our era-specific, cultural specific, stories, narratives, mythology, etc.

Full article here: https://therationalmale.com/category/hypergamy-2/

Hypergamy is built into a female's DNA. Providing anecdotal examples or clicking your heels three times and wishing it weren't true isn't going to make it go away.

Accept it. And make yourself a better man by improving yourself everyday.

Post: #8

(09-20-2018 07:25 AM)droughtmeat Wrote:  I've witnessed that myself where a chick would pay for all of our meals out, would give me her car etc. But I think that just comes as a result of pleasuring them sexually.

White collar women with money are willing to go dutch or occasionally pay mostly because they have money to burn. These same women, in order to have moved up the ladder, tend to be on the feminist spectrum and like to (at least sometimes) demonstrate that they can be their own provider.

Women who pay out of payback for good sex are dating up, usually post-wall, and these are a subset of the above professional class. The payback is an attempt to keep a deal going that they know probably won't last long. Call it Sunset Blvd. syndrome.

Post: #9

Ir could be just compensation between different factors..

Post: #10

@ flyinghorse

Isn't the key point here though that you have not had a very long LTR? You said you dated a lot. However, it does not look like you had a long LTR, where a woman locked you down for a very extended period of time. Hypergamy says that for provider purposes a woman will choose a man of higher status who is a provider, she will choose the best man she can get. However, this does not preclude a woman having fun, dating Alphas, or just fun guys with game. The question is would they ultimately choose you for a LTR, ie for good, over a guy with more money and status, ie for long term? Did they? If not, maybe your experience does not disprove hypergamy.

Post: #11

Youre thinking of hypergamy in terms of sexual value on a logical scale. That more "worth" (financial/ social/) is necessarily a higher value. But a logical scale is a male perception.

But that's not really how the concept works for women. Theirs is based on an emotional response largely based on their self esteem (or lack there of). The guy that gives her more "tingles", irregardless of the source of those, is more attractive to her based on her particular emotional needs.

That's why you can have a beautiful girl "in love" with a scumbag / broke / loser that treats her like shit.

Like DNA no two humans have the exact same combination of experience and id / ego that's why what triggers one woman's "tingles" doesn't necessarily work for all. No one size fits all playbook. Only heuristics that can indicate broad tendencies

One woman may respond to the "excitement" of tatted up ganje smoking musician that's fucking multiple girls, while another's attraction sequence is more receptive to the dominant alpha provider type.

Hypergamy exists, but its the emotional source component highly variable nature makes it hard to accurately predict

Post: #12

I am not arguing against Hypergamy . But sometimes, you met “ taken” woman and you know she really likes you . But still can’t get her to cheat or to break up with her boyfriend
whats the explanation for this ?

Post: #13

(09-20-2018 10:53 AM)Mizo1234 Wrote:  I am not arguing against Hypergamy . But sometimes, you met “ taken” woman and you know she really likes you . But still can’t get her to cheat or to break up with her boyfriend
whats the explanation for this ?

Youre not Ryan Gosling

Post: #14

Yes . I am not .
But I mean you can sense she likes what she sees in you , but would never put up .
Or maybe she can sense you are not looking to settle down and she wants to get marry lol

What about saying Hypergamy changes with the women priorities ( marriage vs fun,...)

Post: #15

(09-20-2018 10:05 AM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  That's why you can have a beautiful girl "in love" with a scumbag / broke / loser that treats her like shit...One woman may respond to the "excitement" of tatted up ganje smoking musician that's fucking multiple girls, while another's attraction sequence is more receptive to the dominant alpha provider type.

Hypergamy exists, but its the emotional source component highly variable nature makes it hard to accurately predict

I knew a woman who was really messed up, had a schizophrenic brother and a mother who was, uh, her own set of problems. You could tell she was riddled with anxiety and every other problem just from watching her walk around, like the 'before' picture of a rescue dog.

In any case, she was dating a line cook who got fired at Applebee's and kept bumming weed money off of her. This dude couldn't adequately prepare onion rings to the standard required to justify paying him $10/hr.

However, she was convinced that he was going to become a famous chef.

Convinced.

She would even try to take care of his kids from his last marriage that he didn't give two shits about.

In her mind, she was getting banged by the next Anthony Bourdain, even when he got angry at her and threw her purse into the woods so she couldn't go to work, and all of her coworkers ended up forming a search party to come to her house and help her find it. Nothing could convince her this guy was a brain-dead scrub or that she was only broke because she was taking care of him.

Post: #16

(09-20-2018 11:11 AM)Mizo1234 Wrote:  Yes . I am not .
But I mean you can sense she likes what she sees in you , but would never put up .
Or maybe she can sense you are not looking to settle down and she wants to get marry lol

What about saying Hypergamy changes with the women priorities ( marriage vs fun,...)

No hypergamy is hypergamy, women will do anything for the right guy at the right time.

Women's emotions aka "Gina Tingles" will always overrule priorities "logic"

Like Papaya said, a married/taken/mother will do anything for the right guy.

Post: #17

(09-20-2018 11:45 AM)kaotic Wrote:  

(09-20-2018 11:11 AM)Mizo1234 Wrote:  Yes . I am not .
But I mean you can sense she likes what she sees in you , but would never put up .
Or maybe she can sense you are not looking to settle down and she wants to get marry lol

What about saying Hypergamy changes with the women priorities ( marriage vs fun,...)

No hypergamy is hypergamy, women will do anything for the right guy at the right time.

Women's emotions aka "Gina Tingles" will always overrule priorities "logic"

Like Papaya said, a married/taken/mother will do anything for the right guy.

Like everything else in human dynamics it boils down to Fear vs Desire.

Think of it as a scale

Everything happens (or doesn't) depending on which motivator is "winning"



In the case of hypergamy a woman may "want to" (desire) but the consequences (fear) may hold her back.

In extreme cases however women (as well as men) have knowingly blown up their entire life for a brief fling because their individual POV allocated so much desire that it overwhelmed all fear of the consequences

Post: #18

The perfect example of hypergamy is a "happily married woman' meeting the perfect guy and cheating on her husband with him. The husband doesn't have to know.

A woman dates across the board but will drop you as soon as better options come. That's hypergamy. There's no loyalty and unlike men who typically cheat only sexually, hypergamy causes women to put everything on the line and commit completely to that new man until another better an comes around.

Post: #19

Women don't necessarily date "up". This is not true. But they fuck "up" as a general rule, and they date "up" where they can, specifically online dating.

Post: #20

A modern day alpha male is not just some super tall rich guy. It's a guy who is confident in himself, can lead a group if shit hits the fan, and can be a "leading man" of a movie, if you will. The leading man in every movie is not always the rich obnoxious guy either. Sometimes it's the guy who is going against the rich obnoxious guy. Paying close attention to "leading man" characteristics will get you closer to knowing who is alpha and who isn't. This means that "game" or "swag" does exist and is a big part of what makes you attractive and charismatic.

As for myself, I always take on the "guru" role, or the "main character" role in my social circles. I have the ability to decipher any system and use it to put myself in position of authority. This can rub some people the wrong way, but it always leads to connections with high status males and respect from females. Even though I am not the tallest, most handsome, or the richest, my frame projects me as often the most dominant amongst my male friends. It is just built into my DNA to assume the most dominant role and it makes up for any perceived shortcoming.

So the key is dominance. And social dominance aka game (or frame game) plays a large part in it. You can probably beat up Hitler or Napoleon in a street fight, but those guys had the internal dominance to change the world. And they probably had no problems with women either.

I think today more than ever, guys have forgotten the power of their own masculine dominance and how to use that power to turn the world upside down. If you knew how to wield the power of dominance, getting women ain't shit. Being a "pimp" is just having extreme mental dominance over women. There are dominant business men who pimp out the public for money.

Dominance is almost limitless. You can take over the world with it...

And here we are....surprised that our dominance can get sex here and there from 6's and 7's. Lol.

If you had the dominance to affect and change the world around you, even the hottest women would not phase you. If you can dominate the world, you can dominate women. It's built into your DNA. At the same time, if you react to 6's and 7's giving you shit, then they know you have no dominance and probably have nothing going on in your life.

This is what hypergamy is. Women only respond to dominant men. However, dominance takes many forms and shapes.

The dating game is petty compared to the games powerful people play. Not only do the most powerful men in society have game, but they play games of war and attrition. Look at Donald Trump. He threatens women and pays them hush money and have them stalked and somehow he is still president.

The day the manosphere replaces the word confidence with dominance, everything will make sense. We were meant to dominate in everything we do in life, including women. And if we fail to dominate, we die. Our genes get weeded out. Every other philosophy is just a coping mechanism that weak men use to relieve themselves from the burden of life.

Post: #21

You don't need to believe in natural laws for them to work. Reality doesn't need your faith to keep moving. Hypergamy doesn't care.

Post: #22

I think MUCH too much is made of "hypergamy" by certain figures in the manosphere.

I'm continually amazed at women's ability to get with — and in many cases, stay in relationships for years with — men they don't love, whom they aren't excited by or turned on by in the least.

If anything, women's natural tendency is toward sexual conservatism and long-term mediocrity. The job of a seducer is to persuade her to deviate from her path of normalcy, break out of her dull conventional ways, and to try something unusual and extraordinary.

Post: #23

(09-20-2018 04:11 PM)Scoundrel Wrote:  I think MUCH too much is made of "hypergamy" by certain figures in the manosphere.

I'm continually amazed at women's ability to get with — and in many cases, stay in relationships for years with — men they don't love, whom they aren't excited by or turned on by in the least.

If anything, women's natural tendency is toward sexual conservatism and long-term mediocrity. The job of a seducer is to persuade her to deviate from her path of normalcy, break out of her dull conventional ways, and to try something unusual and extraordinary.

Agree to a point.

I think a lot of guys read The Rational Male or similar RP books/blogs and develop a mindset not of AWALT but AWAELT (all women are exactly like that). It is like there is one female archetype and all women fall exactly in to it (except mothers and sisters, of course).

But what about lesbians, or asexuals, or women who choose a celibate life in spite of their natural desires? It is easy enough to say that for the right guy... but that can be said about any human being in any situation. I am not a killer, but under the right set of circumstances, I would kill someone. Portugal and Morocco are seemingly okay countries run by rational actors, but under the right set of circumstances, they might go to war.

There are literally millions of minor (and often consciously forgotten) factors that influence why a given woman might choose a given man. Maybe he plays flamenco guitar just like her dad who died when she was seven. Maybe they are both members of the same obscure religious sect. Maybe they are both closeted white supremacists who found each other. Maybe they are both closeted homosexuals and the entire relationship is a ruse.

The point is, it is very difficult to judge the dynamics of a relationship merely by looking at the relative physical attractiveness of the partners. And all of this is ignoring the differences between SMV, and RMV/MMV.

For an actual example, consider the following. I know plenty of very attractive women who are married to boring, vanilla, doughy dudes. You might look at these couples and think, what the hell? But what you don't know is that these women were/are the biggest sluts in the world. The rode that carousel hard, and when father time began to take his price, they locked down the best provider guys they could find. These guys are boring, middle and upper-management corporate types. Maybe those women cheat. Maybe they don't. But they have set up a situation that seems to benefit them the most in this period of their lives. Maybe they leave their husbands after the kids are grown. Maybe they die together, Notebook-style. I can't predict that, and nobody else can either.

To engage in that kind of "clairvoyance" is the most brutal type of ecological fallacy I can think of.

Post: #24

If you date a lot then you have to keep aware of why you would stop dating one girl and start dating another. Women will date up, down, across, sideways and backwards but will find that things have run their course and move on when something they perceive as better has come along. Of course, guys do this too but it is pathological for women.

Dating is different than LTRs and the motivations for getting out of them are different as well.

Sure, I have dated fashion models, doctors, teachers, business execs and such. Most of my adult life I have been a 6 who passes for a 7 and occasionally dates 8s. Of all those women only one was explicit about not wanting an LTR unless the guy (is. me) made six figures. Others wanted to "settle down" but by implication, the guy would have to make six-figures. Others flaked or ghosted; I am no mind reader but apparently they wanted a fling that was an entertaining distraction. . . and then land someone making six figures.

When women break up with you by words or actions, it's a sure thing that they aren't going to say "cause muh hypergamy".

As a side note, a person who is " a little above average at everything" is not just "a little above average" overall. Suppose there are 5 independent variables upon which a guy can be rated (say looks, charm, intelligence, money and status) and a guy is at the 60th percentile in each, does that mean he is better than 60% of all men? No! Only 1% of other men are better at everything.

Post: #25

(09-20-2018 10:53 AM)Mizo1234 Wrote:  I am not arguing against Hypergamy . But sometimes, you met “ taken” woman and you know she really likes you . But still can’t get her to cheat or to break up with her boyfriend
whats the explanation for this ?

They enjoy the validation/attention.