Post: #1

Made this post on a separate thread, which pretty much sums up my current situation. I'm now down to deciding between Belgrade and Kiev. This will be a min of 6 months, i will find work, and try to build a solid base, rather than be super gamey and hitting bars. I'm 42 and frankly dont drink much or enjoy clubs and night life much these days, few drinks in a cool bar, here and there apart.

Any comparisons between the two ? I'm assuming that finance wise they're around the same cost of living?

I have not visited either city, though have lived in similar countries before. My daily lifestyle is generally around going to gym, working on pc, and enjoying hobbies in nature. One thing that attracts me to Ukraine is the great boxing gyms and culture out there. I;ve been training boxing for last 5 years or so and having a good gym is great for social side as well as obvious heath benefits.

One question - What are the smoking regs in these countries? One thing i've found grim in various parts of EE is people smoking in bars and clubs. I realise its not the end of the world, but i dont smoke, and coming home stinking of smoke and having to wash clothes on account of it, always seemed a drag. I only speak English and some spanish, no Russian.

Here's my earlier post, which details my situation


Long story short, wasted pretty much my entire 30s sleeping around, and chasing the player lifestyle. First half of my thirties (up to around 2013) was successful, had a lot of girls, but being a feckless idiot let many of them drift in chasing the player lifestyle. Second half of my thirties drifted into bad choices, at varying points depression, and ultimately failure and at points isolation. Now in recent couple of years got myself back on track, and at (a young) 42, feel i'm on my last go round to find a traditional and good woman to start a family and settle down with.

I'm in good physical condition from training boxing (my main hobby), looks wise am decent looking (i guess around a 7 fwiw), and am somewhat financially independent (i own outright a property in my home country, which is rented out and nets me around 1000USD pcm, also do a few bits and pieces online and teach english to supplement this). I am European, and do not want to go outside of European / Euro descended women. I am politically nationalistic, and value traditionalism. I am Christian. I have lived and worked in EE, and consider this the best region for me, and the kind of women i would like to attract.

In my experience as someone who moved East nearly a decade ago, is that the SMV of a westerner has fallen exponentially year on year in this region. Speaking with friends of mine (mostly Ukranian) they agree, that in Ukraine, a woman to be with a westerner is a low-status thing now, whereas a few years ago it was the opposite. They may string along foreigners in exchange for dates, attention, presents etc, but if they're any attractive or high value, they'll have a local boyfriend in the background. Now of course, you wouldnt want to attract those kind of girls as a future partner, but the point remains, that the legions of thirsty men who've travelled east having been sold a 'pussy paradise' by the last decades PUA industry, have pissed in the well out there.

I am in the process of looking at regions to live in, and give this 6 months. I dont believe you can attract any mate of value if you're passing through. You need to have some form of stability or work IMHO.

Currently I am thinking of:

Kiev - pros - standard of women, cheap cost of living. Negs - a prime example of a place jaded by Western thirsty males. Not a place i'd want to build a long term life.

South Balkans, specifically Macedonia / Serbia / Montenegro - I've never been, but being Slavic i am assuming the woman are attractive. Cheap living, beautiful country nature wise. Traditional cultures.

Spain - I speak Spanish, love the culture, and it is a great country and society to build a future. However it is not especially traditional these days, the Spanish in my exp are superficially friendly, but often not much beyond that. Being so sociable, all women of value have hosts of orbiters, or friends matchmaking for them.

I'm kicking around ideas at the moment, apologies if this post is unfocused. Given my criteria and situation, i'd be interested in any thoughts on it all...

Post: #2

Belgrade is one of the toughest cities in EE for gaming while Kiev is one of the easiest cities (still despite things getting worse). In Belgrade everyone smokes everywhere. So what I understand from your priorities there is no reason for you to look into Belgrade.

Post: #3

(04-06-2019 09:22 AM)superschalk Wrote:  Belgrade is one of the toughest cities in EE for gaming while Kiev is one of the easiest cities (still despite things getting worse). In Belgrade everyone smokes everywhere. So what I understand from your priorities there is no reason for you to look into Belgrade.

Thanks. Is Kiev not becoming saturated / jaded? My main concern is the relative lack of English, in comparison to Belgrade. Why specifically would you say Belgrade is a tough gig?

Post: #4

Have spent decent time in both. If i was looking for serious ltr i would choose belgrade. Its tougher to get high numbers in belgrade but id say the girls there have a more traditional mindset still and i think their background is easier to understand. More religious as well as a whole.

Post: #5

(04-06-2019 09:27 AM)Elmore Wrote:  Thanks. Is Kiev not becoming saturated / jaded? My main concern is the relative lack of English, in comparison to Belgrade. Why specifically would you say Belgrade is a tough gig?

Sure Kiev becomes saturated but if you there for six months you find out that as soon as you move 2km away from Maidan Kiev becomes a totally different city.

Belgrade is though because girls there have no interest in dating outsiders. Serbian guys are good looking and girls are happy with them, while Ukrainian girls are keen in dating foreigners. There intentions on why they want to date foreigners can be questionable but you will get a feeling of their intentions sooner enough.

I have met plenty of forum guys in both cities but never met anyone who told me that Belgrade is better for gaming than Kiev.

Post: #6

Only issue for OP in Kiev will be lack of Russian/Ukrainian knowledge. If you live outside city center there will definitely be some struggles language wise. Even when it comes to getting various documents/services in order it won't be easy, unless you have a local support person, ie., understanding, English-speaking landlord who can help you with various chores and translations.

Post: #7

Hi man.
I'm living in Kiev, so can say something for your questions (but now my English is f-n terrible).
About smoking - that is banned in all "social places", except the one gay's nightclub))
But when you rent apartment you can feel smoke on balcony from your neiborgs (so if it possible - I recomend you to rent a detached house + auto).
About boxing - I even now some good fighters who know English and have travelling experience.
Also I know girls and women here, who interested in dating and communication in general with white foreighners, who know English)
BUT - in general, Kiev is sulky place.

Post: #8

In Belgrade just about every girl speaks English and they have better nightlife if that's your thing. It sucks that just about every girl chain smokes. Serbian lizards have some of the best bodies I've seen, like Colombianas that are stretched out to 175+cm while maintaining tits and ass.

In Kiev you'll need Russian to get the same reach as in Belgrade. Girls are hot, but not as voluptuous but you won't notice unless you're coming in after 4 months in South America. More blatant gold-digging in Kiev, although both places have lots of soft pros/Instagram thots.

Post: #9

Kiev is far more livable than Belgrade. Belgrade is rough.

Don't listen to the typical "Kiev is getting worse" woe-is-me stories. Spend more than 2 weeks and live anywhere but on K Street and everything is fine.

Post: #10

Balkan girls are one of the hardest in Europe, Ukrainian ones are one of the easiest.


Belgrade people and girls in particular are too stuck up, they think they are better than they are, don't know if foreigner who isn't familiar with the culture can see it.
They don't really see much value in a foreigner unless you are Chad with some money to spend as looks wise local guys are good looking, smooth and street smart.
On the other hand Ukrainian men are one of the worst looking in Europe.

Cost of living? I would say it is about the same

Post: #11

I would say Belgrade

Although many women indeed smoke like chimneys and intense smoke in bars/cafes/clubs is a major minus.

Both cities suffer from quite serious pollution

For LTR Belgrade better because the women are generally more loyal, whereas Ukrainians girls always look to upgrade.

Many Serbs are very sporty, boxing is popular.

I can make hundreds of comparisons but in the end best if you visit both cities yourself and then decide.

Post: #12

(04-06-2019 09:07 AM)Elmore Wrote:  Made this post on a separate thread, which pretty much sums up my current situation. I'm now down to deciding between Belgrade and Kiev. This will be a min of 6 months, i will find work, and try to build a solid base, rather than be super gamey and hitting bars. I'm 42 and frankly dont drink much or enjoy clubs and night life much these days, few drinks in a cool bar, here and there apart.

Any comparisons between the two ? I'm assuming that finance wise they're around the same cost of living?

I have not visited either city, though have lived in similar countries before. My daily lifestyle is generally around going to gym, working on pc, and enjoying hobbies in nature. One thing that attracts me to Ukraine is the great boxing gyms and culture out there. I;ve been training boxing for last 5 years or so and having a good gym is great for social side as well as obvious heath benefits.

One question - What are the smoking regs in these countries? One thing i've found grim in various parts of EE is people smoking in bars and clubs. I realise its not the end of the world, but i dont smoke, and coming home stinking of smoke and having to wash clothes on account of it, always seemed a drag. I only speak English and some spanish, no Russian.

Here's my earlier post, which details my situation


Long story short, wasted pretty much my entire 30s sleeping around, and chasing the player lifestyle. First half of my thirties (up to around 2013) was successful, had a lot of girls, but being a feckless idiot let many of them drift in chasing the player lifestyle. Second half of my thirties drifted into bad choices, at varying points depression, and ultimately failure and at points isolation. Now in recent couple of years got myself back on track, and at (a young) 42, feel i'm on my last go round to find a traditional and good woman to start a family and settle down with.

I'm in good physical condition from training boxing (my main hobby), looks wise am decent looking (i guess around a 7 fwiw), and am somewhat financially independent (i own outright a property in my home country, which is rented out and nets me around 1000USD pcm, also do a few bits and pieces online and teach english to supplement this). I am European, and do not want to go outside of European / Euro descended women. I am politically nationalistic, and value traditionalism. I am Christian. I have lived and worked in EE, and consider this the best region for me, and the kind of women i would like to attract.

In my experience as someone who moved East nearly a decade ago, is that the SMV of a westerner has fallen exponentially year on year in this region. Speaking with friends of mine (mostly Ukranian) they agree, that in Ukraine, a woman to be with a westerner is a low-status thing now, whereas a few years ago it was the opposite. They may string along foreigners in exchange for dates, attention, presents etc, but if they're any attractive or high value, they'll have a local boyfriend in the background. Now of course, you wouldnt want to attract those kind of girls as a future partner, but the point remains, that the legions of thirsty men who've travelled east having been sold a 'pussy paradise' by the last decades PUA industry, have pissed in the well out there.

I am in the process of looking at regions to live in, and give this 6 months. I dont believe you can attract any mate of value if you're passing through. You need to have some form of stability or work IMHO.

Currently I am thinking of:

Kiev - pros - standard of women, cheap cost of living. Negs - a prime example of a place jaded by Western thirsty males. Not a place i'd want to build a long term life.

South Balkans, specifically Macedonia / Serbia / Montenegro - I've never been, but being Slavic i am assuming the woman are attractive. Cheap living, beautiful country nature wise. Traditional cultures.

Spain - I speak Spanish, love the culture, and it is a great country and society to build a future. However it is not especially traditional these days, the Spanish in my exp are superficially friendly, but often not much beyond that. Being so sociable, all women of value have hosts of orbiters, or friends matchmaking for them.

I'm kicking around ideas at the moment, apologies if this post is unfocused. Given my criteria and situation, i'd be interested in any thoughts on it all...

I've been living in Kiev for 2 years. So here's my take on the situation here. In terms of quality and traffic, it's a good place if you're into fairly tall, slim, Slavic-looking women. But there are three disadvantages to living here long-term. 1/ The language barrier: most uneducated people don't speak any English. 2/ Most foreigners girls meet here are Turkish sex tourists and, as a foreigner, they tend to put you in that category, even if you're not Turkish. 3/ Kiev is a bit of a village and, over time, you will run into people/girls you've already met.

Post: #13

I've never been to Kiev, but I think rent in Belgrade is cheaper overall, and everybody speaks English.

However, like everybody said, B is fucking tough. One night stands or long term relationships, doesn't matter. You're a foreigner and therefore perceived as less worthy relationship-wise.

Post: #14

In Serbia, smoking inside is very common. All of your clothes will smell like it after a while. Most of the people smoke.

You can get on just fine in Kiev in my opinion. Although, it is honestly a lot more grim.

It looks like the apocalypse in the winter time. Belgrade is similar, although winter is a little bit less rough. It sucks in both places.

Look man, here's what you do: stop asking for advice, buy a plane ticket, and go to one for a month.

Buy another plane ticket before you leave that takes you to the next one.

Book an Airbnb in both (try to negotiate the price).

...and decide.

I've lived in both and I find Belgrade to be a lot more stimulating, safer feeling, less "poor," although a lot shittier looking.

It's really a total tossup and your mileage may vary in both places. There is no definitive answer.

Post: #15

Obviously the Kiev loyalists are going to say Kiev, and the Belgrade people are going to say Belgrade.

That's like asking if you drink Ketel or Grey Goose. Both are fine, depends what you like.

Post: #16

Also, if you value traditionalism...you are quite likely better off searching in a second tier town.

Post: #17

It would be hard to integrate especially in 2nd tier Serbian city

Without speaking the language you will be limited to girls who can speak English and in most cases they are the ones you should stay away from.
Level of English highly correlates to level of promiscuity , degeneracy and feminism exposure.

Post: #18

(04-06-2019 09:41 AM)superschalk Wrote:  

(04-06-2019 09:27 AM)Elmore Wrote:  Thanks. Is Kiev not becoming saturated / jaded? My main concern is the relative lack of English, in comparison to Belgrade. Why specifically would you say Belgrade is a tough gig?

Sure Kiev becomes saturated but if you there for six months you find out that as soon as you move 2km away from Maidan Kiev becomes a totally different city.

Belgrade is though because girls there have no interest in dating outsiders. Serbian guys are good looking and girls are happy with them, while Ukrainian girls are keen in dating foreigners. There intentions on why they want to date foreigners can be questionable but you will get a feeling of their intentions sooner enough.

I have met plenty of forum guys in both cities but never met anyone who told me that Belgrade is better for gaming than Kiev.

What are these kinds of generalizations?

There are plenty of ugly or beta looking serbian dudes, just like there are plenty of good looking Ukrainian dudes.

There are a considerable amount of serbian women who like foreigners, just like there are also plenty of '' nationalistic'' Ukrainian women who don't like to look easy to foreigners.

You seem more girls in Ukraien dating foreigners, for simple reasons...

The population is much larger, around 40 million so these cases increase naturally.

Secondly '' prostitution'' or even scamming is bigger in Ukraine.

But I know guy/s that have been in trouble in Belgrade, because the serbian girls they were fucking had at the same time another serbian boyfriend that were looking after them. One of these guys that I know got even in danger btw because her Belgrade boyfriend was coming at her apartment and he was some king of Hooligan leader or something .

So it always depends.

One thing is for sure, that Serbian women smoke much more, they are more social circle oriented, while they opportunity to choose girls at around 20s in Ukraine is much larger because the population there is younger ( and bigger).

I would Say Kiev for the OP.

Post: #19

(04-08-2019 02:37 PM)Bananaman711 Wrote:  It would be hard to integrate especially in 2nd tier Serbian city

Without speaking the language you will be limited to girls who can speak English and in most cases they are the ones you should stay away from.
Level of English highly correlates to level of promiscuity , degeneracy and feminism exposure.

So according to you girls that know english in western balkans are whores or degenerates?

Since when this criteria was set?

I would say that intellectually higher level girls know english more than sluts or degenerates that many times are plain dumb.

Post: #20

If smoking bothers you on ANY level then forget Belgrade. I'd estimate at least 70% of the population smokes. You WILL smell like smoke, this is unavoidable if you do anything out and about in the city. Roosh specifically mentioned the hardcore smoking in Serbia and this was my experience as well.

This is significantly less of an issue in Kiev. Go there.

Post: #21

(04-08-2019 02:37 PM)Bananaman711 Wrote:  It would be hard to integrate especially in 2nd tier Serbian city

Without speaking the language you will be limited to girls who can speak English and in most cases they are the ones you should stay away from.
Level of English highly correlates to level of promiscuity , degeneracy and feminism exposure.

Sure. I could see that. It wasn't too hard in Ukraine, but sure.

Post: #22

(04-09-2019 03:58 AM)azulsombra Wrote:  If smoking bothers you on ANY level then forget Belgrade. I'd estimate at least 70% of the population smokes. You WILL smell like smoke, this is unavoidable if you do anything out and about in the city. Roosh specifically mentioned the hardcore smoking in Serbia and this was my experience as well.

This is significantly less of an issue in Kiev. Go there.

https://ourworldindata.org/smoking

It appears a that a whole Balkan region loves to smoke

37% Serbian women smoke VS 13% Ukrainian

I would add that Serbian women are heavy black coffee drinkers and use makeup much more aggressively than women in the West

How does it affect aging? Do you see many 30-40 year old MILFs

From what I observed both SR/UK women peak early in mid teens and go down fast after mid/late 20s

Post: #23

The smoking problem is big across the balkans. After leaving Belgrade, I went to Bulgaria and had a sizzling gf, but she smoked so much that her gums were blue. Once I saw that, I had to make my exit

I didn't see nearly as much smoking in Lviv but it's true that Serbs are more voluptuous.

One tactic is hitting yoga studios and maybe gyms

Post: #24

These overviews don’t sound anything at all like Belgrade, there’s absolutely nothing hard about that place IMO. Belgrade is definitely a party city especially in the summer, English is widely spoken, andpeople are super nice.

Post: #25

People being nice has nothing to do with the difficulty of fucking Serbian girls.