Post: #1

It's common knowledge around here that half-decent girls have no interest in >95% of men who cross their path. They only give a shit about the few men who are the rare combination of their exact type and conventionally hot. I used to think it was ridiculous how picky they were. Now I'm the same way.

Working, even suffering, to improve your own desirability has a funny way of raising your standards accordingly. If you're a newbie sitting around dreaming about how once you get your shit in order, the girls you like will start flocking to you, I've got unfortunate news: If you really do get all your shit in order, the girls you're currently into will seem like a joke. And you'll have no conscious control over it. I'd love to be fiendishly attracted to slightly chubby 5's, but I'd have better luck trying to will my eyes to change color.

Now there is a key difference: My standards come from wanting to be rewarded for years of hard work and accomplishment, whereas girls' lofty standards are a response to god-given sexual market power in their prime years, but the result is the same; plenty of options, without any that feel worthwhile.

The fundamental problem is this: No matter where you are on the journey of self-improvement, you want girls who are [at least] your equals, i.e. those you'd be able to obtain on a level playing field. But, of course, those girls are virtually unattainable because in most locales in the west, the playing field is ludicrously tilted. See my previous thread on online dating ratios, or count up the ratios in bars/clubs/anywhere people to go meet the opposite sex... the odds are just awful to ever obtain the equal you crave.

Hate to be a downer, but I had to get it off my chest that no amount of self-improvement will alleviate your disappointment in the state of the dating market. The silver lining, of course, is that if girls motivate you to get in shape, earn a stable income, dress better, improve your skincare, be more social, learn to be likable and command respect... well, you still have all those things regardless of whether it satisfies your romantic life. Improve yourself, but don't envision some fake finish line where you're suddenly happy with everything because you have a six-pack.

Off to the gym now.

Post: #2

Great observations. Yes your standards and expectations will go up based on the level of effort and work you put into yourself and your resume --- but you also need to remember that by the time you've reached a point where you've invested years into self-improvement and are ready for the game, the world may be a radically different place from when you started...this is what happened to me. Also, your highest rated prospects are still going to pussy whip you and manipulate you with pussy power. They will get you to submit eventually - and they may be in it simply to divorce you and take half of what you worked for all those years. Or they may be in it to control and manipulate you into doing all those little household tasks they don't like to do...and if you don't? No pussy...and maybe no cuddling either. They might play difficult and sleep on the couch - and look at prospects on dating sites while you're in bed.

Post: #3

Quote:They only give a shit about the few men who are the rare combination of their exact type and conventionally hot.

I do not agree with this statement.

You have to be sexually attractive. This is the main requirement. Although being a "visually attractive guy" certainly helps, it is not needed at all.

Quote:in shape, earn a stable income, dress better, improve your skincare, be more social, learn to be likable and command respect

None of these things necessarily make you sexually attractive.

You can be a millionaire, wearing the most expensive suits, with the best quality skincare, the best social skills in the world and be respected by a thousand men and still you can be sexually unattractive.

At the same time you can be a homeless bum and be considered a sexually attractive guy.

There is a clear difference between being the "relationship guy" and being the "sexual guy".

Your own "standards" are very likely an excuse.

Post: #4

This thread is why god created alcohol. Drink enough and it solves your problem...

Sounds like your issue is that you're still rooted in a location that doesn't offer the market you desire. I've been there, where you stay in the "comfort zone" location wise and suffer the marketplace factors. If you're in a bad market then you need to change that. Plenty of other places have the market you're looking for and will change the dynamics. You're the guy building a great business in a market with limited consumers instead of moving that business to a market loaded with consumers.

Post: #5

(11-01-2018 05:32 AM)BadBoyGamer Wrote:  

Quote:They only give a shit about the few men who are the rare combination of their exact type and conventionally hot.

I do not agree with this statement.

You have to be sexually attractive. This is the main requirement. Although being a "visually attractive guy" certainly helps, it is not needed at all.

Quote:in shape, earn a stable income, dress better, improve your skincare, be more social, learn to be likable and command respect

None of these things necessarily make you sexually attractive.

You can be a millionaire, wearing the most expensive suits, with the best quality skincare, the best social skills in the world and be respected by a thousand men and still you can be sexually unattractive.

At the same time you can be a homeless bum and be considered a sexually attractive guy.

There is a clear difference between being the "relationship guy" and being the "sexual guy".

Your own "standards" are very likely an excuse.

I beg to differ - getting in shape makes a huge difference. Some guys look like average joes at double digit bodyfat, but turn into male models at single digit bodyfat. Face is #1 when it comes to sexual attraction.

Post: #6

At least you should pass through a period of banging 5s-6s-7s and feeling pretty darn good about it before your standards get too high and you hit diminishing returns.

Post: #7

(11-01-2018 09:54 PM)tugofpeace Wrote:  

(11-01-2018 05:32 AM)BadBoyGamer Wrote:  

Quote:They only give a shit about the few men who are the rare combination of their exact type and conventionally hot.

I do not agree with this statement.

You have to be sexually attractive. This is the main requirement. Although being a "visually attractive guy" certainly helps, it is not needed at all.

Quote:in shape, earn a stable income, dress better, improve your skincare, be more social, learn to be likable and command respect

None of these things necessarily make you sexually attractive.

You can be a millionaire, wearing the most expensive suits, with the best quality skincare, the best social skills in the world and be respected by a thousand men and still you can be sexually unattractive.

At the same time you can be a homeless bum and be considered a sexually attractive guy.

There is a clear difference between being the "relationship guy" and being the "sexual guy".

Your own "standards" are very likely an excuse.

I beg to differ - getting in shape makes a huge difference. Some guys look like average joes at double digit bodyfat, but turn into male models at single digit bodyfat. Face is #1 when it comes to sexual attraction.

As I wrote: "None of these things necessarily make you sexually attractive."

One word makes a difference.

Quote:Face is #1 when it comes to sexual attraction.

No it is not.

Plenty of beautifull man who behave like asexual manchilds.
Plenty of ugly man who behave like sexual caveman.

You can only be perceived as sexual if you behave sexual. No body, face, wallet, yacht or mansion is going to make you a sexual being.

Post: #8

Try to think about it different. Getting laid will typically make any event better and more memorable, so if you wanna screw around with a girl that's below your level just do it and have fun. If you're confident in who you are and know what value girls are your level (that you can realistically get today), than picking up a 6 at 3am should not damage your ego.

Post: #9

For the first 28 years of my life, women never smiled at me or saw me as sexual. When I got shredded and my face changed, women were always smiling and checking me out. I changed nothing else.

Post: #10

(10-31-2018 07:23 PM)Delta Wrote:  It's common knowledge around here that half-decent girls have no interest in >95% of men who cross their path. They only give a shit about the few men who are the rare combination of their exact type and conventionally hot. I used to think it was ridiculous how picky they were. Now I'm the same way.

Working, even suffering, to improve your own desirability has a funny way of raising your standards accordingly. If you're a newbie sitting around dreaming about how once you get your shit in order, the girls you like will start flocking to you, I've got unfortunate news: If you really do get all your shit in order, the girls you're currently into will seem like a joke. And you'll have no conscious control over it. I'd love to be fiendishly attracted to slightly chubby 5's, but I'd have better luck trying to will my eyes to change color.

Now there is a key difference: My standards come from wanting to be rewarded for years of hard work and accomplishment, whereas girls' lofty standards are a response to god-given sexual market power in their prime years, but the result is the same; plenty of options, without any that feel worthwhile.

The fundamental problem is this: No matter where you are on the journey of self-improvement, you want girls who are [at least] your equals, i.e. those you'd be able to obtain on a level playing field. But, of course, those girls are virtually unattainable because in most locales in the west, the playing field is ludicrously tilted. See my previous thread on online dating ratios, or count up the ratios in bars/clubs/anywhere people to go meet the opposite sex... the odds are just awful to ever obtain the equal you crave.

Hate to be a downer, but I had to get it off my chest that no amount of self-improvement will alleviate your disappointment in the state of the dating market. The silver lining, of course, is that if girls motivate you to get in shape, earn a stable income, dress better, improve your skincare, be more social, learn to be likable and command respect... well, you still have all those things regardless of whether it satisfies your romantic life. Improve yourself, but don't envision some fake finish line where you're suddenly happy with everything because you have a six-pack.

Off to the gym now.

Agree with you dude.

You mention self improvement which increases your value, and should theoretically open your access to higher value girls.

But, I think there is one final level that is sounds like you are yet to fully become aware of and comprehend.

Value is just one part of the equation (things like looks, fitness, intelligence, having money sorted, funny/interesting etc.). The other part is suitability for a LTR (things like sanity, emotional stability, emotional intelligence and awareness, family and friends situation, habits, how much her past impacts her etc.).

You can get guys who are into self improvement, but aren't necessarily heavy into red pill.

The more red pill you get about female psychology, behavior, biology, spotting red flags, screening - the more you see things in 'high value' girls that makes them unsuitable to keep around in your life as a romantic partner.

Even if you find a high value girl, my experience in this day and age with every single girl I've met, especially in the West, is that there is a 99.9999% chance you find some type of deal breaker red flag, or she fails the screening process.

I haven't been able to solve this yet.

I do think though that the closer you get towards your 30's and 40's, if you want kids in a traditional relationship, you have to put serious thought into possibly sacrificing looks (in the West) or some type of value (might be lack of money if she comes from a poor part of the EU) for a girl with some morals and values that presents a lower risk to blowing up your personal situation and family.

Going further on that - if you do get into an LTR at some point, I think you're absolutely batshit crazy or completely ignorant if you live in the West and either get married full stop, or get married and don't have an absolute watertight fool proof pre nup (if one exists). I'd be having that conversation super early with any potential partner.

Having said all this - it's not an excuse to stop improving yourself and being positive and keep it moving in life. You never know what might happen. (I need to remind myself of this more often)

Just some reality to consider.

Post: #11

(11-01-2018 06:04 AM)JimBobsCooters Wrote:  This thread is why god created alcohol. Drink enough and it solves your problem...

Sounds like your issue is that you're still rooted in a location that doesn't offer the market you desire. I've been there, where you stay in the "comfort zone" location wise and suffer the marketplace factors. If you're in a bad market then you need to change that. Plenty of other places have the market you're looking for and will change the dynamics. You're the guy building a great business in a market with limited consumers instead of moving that business to a market loaded with consumers.

I can certainly relate to this comment. I generally tend to have greater success when I leave the current mid-sized home turf to visit larger "markets" if you will.

I'm also currently in a region where most folks my age are settled down in families & raising kids (And divorces haven't really factored in yet at all. Unfortunately it already did for me not too long back.)

Post: #12

You don't want a woman that overpowers you anyway, you'll lose control, and she'll leave you. You always want to have a girl that you feel you can leave at any time, that worships the ground you walk on. Those are the only kinds that are trainable.

We just have to accept that we'll never have that girl to worship, and we shouldn't want that anyway. The more you achieve and the higher value you become, the less women impress you and bring you joy, and that's the only way you'll be able to give them what they need anyway--by being stable, and indifferent to their power. Beautiful women crave to be dominated, unlike their uglier counterparts who prefer control.

Men get into trouble when they bite off more than they can chew, and as you become more powerful, you'll gradually be able to chew more, only to find out that when you can actually chew what you bite, it isn't nearly as exciting as trying to reach for the stars.

What I'm saying is that we always want what is above us, and once it's attainable, we no longer want it. This is good for other areas of life because it motivates us to keep achieving, but for women, we'll eventually have to take what we can get.

Post: #13

Nightlife/Online dating:
Your conception of how picky women are is biased. You cite bars and online dating but they are disproportionately frequented by less desirable women (at least the ones open to meeting men). Since it is difficult and inherently higher risk to meet a quality guy in these places (reputations and intentions are much more nebulous than in a social circle), it is not at all a go-to method for the highest quality women.

Online and nightlife are far more convenient hunting grounds for men because the physical appearance of a woman is more or less sufficient for attraction and risk isn't nearly as much of an issue for men. It is well documented that women raise their standards quite a bit for a short term hookup where as men are almost universally willing to lower their standards quite a lot. It's no surprise since women expose themselves to pregnancy, possible violent abuse and bigger reputation damage. Of course the public meat market venues are mostly packed with thirsty men and end up lopsided in favor of the women.

The upper echelon of women:
A dismal meat market economy doesn't translate to women having insane standards in all contexts. The top 10-20% of women are regularly invited into social circles and private events where they are pursued by worthy male counterparts in much lower risk scenarios (e.g. introductions from trusted friends and colleagues). The same guy who an attractive woman openly talks to at one of these events might have gotten a bitchy rejection in a bar or a flake on Tinder because she was there just for the attention fill.

When you date an even moderately attractive girl you will notice she gets invited to more private parties than she can even go to. An 8+'s phone lights up like a Christmas tree 24/7 with invites from both men and women. She has very little need to risk mingling with total randoms and it likely takes a guy well above her level to justify the risk. If she does end up at a bar or club, it's usually to socialize with a group and not with the plan of meeting randoms (like it is for 99% of men). An average or slightly above average girl on the other hand is much more likely to get ignored at said parties if she gets invited at all. She is far more compelled to throw caution to the wind and hit the bar or online dating where better looking guys give her plenty of attention at least in the short term.

Social circle:
Even the few guys who are getting attractive women in nightlife are usually leveraging social circle to some degree. The best women care an order of magnitude more about who you know and what those people are saying about you than whether your body fat is 13% or 9%. Obviously being in good shape is an advantage but keep in mind that it is in fairly high supply for women since most young guys lift and keep their body fat in line. Being built like an ancient Greek statue is pretty useless in practice if you have limited or no access. The best access comes with the best social connections, which take time and skill to build.

The attractive women are hanging out somewhere, but if you come across as thirsty and a bit frustrated like the OP most cool guys aren't going to even consider inviting you to their parties. Why would they if you're going to take but not give anything in return? Become the guy who clearly brings something of value to the table, not the calculating and overly entitled guy focused on getting what he thinks he "deserves."

While some physical attraction is necessary for the best women, it's not nearly as much of a sufficient factor that it is for men. Humans evolved in social hierarchies and your social status is a huge factor regardless of how much you've self improved in a vacuum. The best women want to date the guy who is respected and desired by other high value people because it is hard evidence that he carries genes that are built for real world success. Indecisive by nature, women gladly outsource most of the decision regarding who they date to the social hierarchy. Online dating or bars thwarts this point of reference quite a bit unless you are rolling with a celebrity entourage or the biggest promoter in your city. A woman not being able to see a man's social circle is akin to a man not being able to see a woman's body.


Cliff notes: Bars and online dating are typically avoided or not taken seriously by the top women and have always been saturated with thirsty men looking for a convenient shortcut. If you're a top guy you will almost always be slumming it by default. Networking and leveraging social circle are the only tried and true ways to reliably get an "equal" or to do well for yourself with only rare exceptions.

Post: #14

I wrote about this phenomenon a couple years ago: /post-1059772.html

In which women actually auto filter themselves out of your sphere when you come across as a man of quality (at least in real life, online dating is another can of worms). So not only do your standards go up, but you don't even have to worry about the 5's approaching you; they know their place.

Currently, after years of self improvement (and a continuing dedication to this self improvement), girls that are below a subjective "7" in my books don't even exist to me. They don't make eyes at me, they don't give me any IOI's at all, and they certainly don't talk to me. I don't see them, they see me, but they know that I'm out of their league.

The girls that I meet nowadays are of a quality that I only wished I could have had in my highschool days. And, because most guys die off as they get out of university, and I continue to get better mentally, physically, and financially, these prospects continue to get better year after year. By the time I'm 30, I don't see myself wasting time with girls that aren't 8/10 or better (not that I do now, but my goal is to have every girl under that threshold essentially non-existent to me).

However, what I've noted is that I do have to approach more, the girls that are in the upper echelons don't usually approach - so the goal is to get to such a level that they are approaching me. When I do approach, the reception is warm however, and it's a seldom occurrence that I'm leaving the interaction without a phone number or promise to meet up again.

Continue your self improvement, because as men, things keep getting better year on year, and it only gets easier with younger girls as you keep getting better. The level of interest I get from 18-22 year olds now vs 3 years ago is staggering. It makes all the blood sweat and tears worth every single minute of it.

Post: #15

Agree with all you say Jcardial.

The only real time I've had good encounters in clubs is either on holiday, or at times when a mass of people are in a new place - say university freshers week or at the start of seasonal work towns etc. In those times the ratios are generally favourable, girls give off strong IOI's because they want to talk to new people and everything just generally seems a bit more 'equal'. For years I often wondered why going out got shit after freshers week was over, or 2 months into a ski season but it's exactly that. People get into social groups that they value, and when they do go out in those groups they become completely unapproachable unless you have an in with somebody in the group.

Post: #16

I disagree with the OP.

I've talked to another RVF bro before about this. Here most of us started out having low male SMVs (which was why we found places like RVF) and began improving ourselves to get better women than what we had available, including the "no woman at all" option. After a while on this self-improvement journey, some of us begin to internalise that we have truly arrived at a higher SMV, act accordingly and are often rewarded likewise. However, a significant number of us are still stuck with the same low SMV mindset in the way we see ourselves from before the journey, and the OP is displaying that kind of mindset right now. This puts us in a weird place where objectively we have become higher SMV but we are still getting poor results like low SMV men, or like ourselves earlier. One prime example/reason is that despite our new found SMVs, we still fish in the same low quality pond, hoping to catch the crappy fish with just a bit more ease than in the past.

I said this because I've been there, and thankfully at one point I recognised that I had not internalised my much improved self worth. I was still dealing with women as if I'm the same lower value guy from previously, but with better external values: nicer body, better dress sense, better social skills, good finance etc. It's like wearing a nice fitted custom suit but with a posture still so bad that it looks like you stole it instead of owning it. I started to believe in myself more, and acted like I have it made. I started to really think about what kind of women I truly wanted to give the gift of my time to. I started to say hard no to women who failed my tests, displeased me in any way or committed the worst sin of all: wasting my most precious resource which is my time. I completely stopped paying attention to average/basic chicks and went straight for the beautiful girls that would catch everyone's eyes at social events, and even then I tested them more than they tested me. My friends were shocked at some of the fine chicks that I declined to spend more time or effort with, or dropped, despite having them on hooks. Yet the more I raised my standards, the better quality women I landed. The women I got during those years, which led me to meeting my now wife, were the highest quality - not jut hot but they are feminine and lovely to be around - I ever got. The funniest thing is, all my friends think I'm punching above my weight, while those women think they're so lucky to get me.

So OP, you've made yourself a better man, believe in your values, and go fish in better ponds.

Post: #17

Strikeback, its almost as if all the things we're told in the RP community about how to become higher status (clothes, muscles, money) doesn't actually make much of a difference.

Rather what makes a difference is our own internal beliefs and how we make women feel.

Its almost as if we could save a lot of time (when it comes to actually bagging chicks) by focusing on our confidence and internalizing that all women care about is how you make them feel. (Hint cool clothes and big muscles dont make them feel much lol)

Ps the problem isn't fishing in a "bad pond" but rather dangling bait that good fish don't desire. Hot dogs will catch crayfish, but the bluefined tuna require something more.

Post: #18

(11-06-2018 07:56 PM)tr1cky Wrote:  Its almost as if we could save a lot of time (when it comes to actually bagging chicks) by focusing on our confidence and internalizing that all women care about is how you make them feel.

True.

(11-06-2018 07:56 PM)tr1cky Wrote:  (Hint cool clothes and big muscles dont make them feel much lol)

Untrue, they can make you stand out which converts into (their) feels.

Fact of the matter is, advantages are advantages as long as they're not a crutch or a burden.

Post: #19

(11-06-2018 06:48 PM)TheFinalEpic Wrote:  I wrote about this phenomenon a couple years ago: /post-1059772.html

In which women actually auto filter themselves out of your sphere when you come across as a man of quality (at least in real life, online dating is another can of worms). So not only do your standards go up, but you don't even have to worry about the 5's approaching you; they know their place.

Currently, after years of self improvement (and a continuing dedication to this self improvement), girls that are below a subjective "7" in my books don't even exist to me. They don't make eyes at me, they don't give me any IOI's at all, and they certainly don't talk to me. I don't see them, they see me, but they know that I'm out of their league.

The girls that I meet nowadays are of a quality that I only wished I could have had in my highschool days. And, because most guys die off as they get out of university, and I continue to get better mentally, physically, and financially, these prospects continue to get better year after year. By the time I'm 30, I don't see myself wasting time with girls that aren't 8/10 or better (not that I do now, but my goal is to have every girl under that threshold essentially non-existent to me).

However, what I've noted is that I do have to approach more, the girls that are in the upper echelons don't usually approach - so the goal is to get to such a level that they are approaching me. When I do approach, the reception is warm however, and it's a seldom occurrence that I'm leaving the interaction without a phone number or promise to meet up again.

Continue your self improvement, because as men, things keep getting better year on year, and it only gets easier with younger girls as you keep getting better. The level of interest I get from 18-22 year olds now vs 3 years ago is staggering. It makes all the blood sweat and tears worth every single minute of it.

How were you getting access to these girls, and how often were you getting girls like you describe?

From what you have described - it sounds like you're doing it entirely off cold approach.

Which country were you getting the bulk of these girls in, and was it in a major city?

Any detail in regards to the type of pond you were fishing in would be helpful.

Post: #20

(11-06-2018 07:42 PM)StrikeBack Wrote:  I disagree with the OP.

I've talked to another RVF bro before about this. Here most of us started out having low male SMVs (which was why we found places like RVF) and began improving ourselves to get better women than what we had available, including the "no woman at all" option. After a while on this self-improvement journey, some of us begin to internalise that we have truly arrived at a higher SMV, act accordingly and are often rewarded likewise. However, a significant number of us are still stuck with the same low SMV mindset in the way we see ourselves from before the journey, and the OP is displaying that kind of mindset right now. This puts us in a weird place where objectively we have become higher SMV but we are still getting poor results like low SMV men, or like ourselves earlier. One prime example/reason is that despite our new found SMVs, we still fish in the same low quality pond, hoping to catch the crappy fish with just a bit more ease than in the past.

I said this because I've been there, and thankfully at one point I recognised that I had not internalised my much improved self worth. I was still dealing with women as if I'm the same lower value guy from previously, but with better external values: nicer body, better dress sense, better social skills, good finance etc. It's like wearing a nice fitted custom suit but with a posture still so bad that it looks like you stole it instead of owning it. I started to believe in myself more, and acted like I have it made. I started to really think about what kind of women I truly wanted to give the gift of my time to. I started to say hard no to women who failed my tests, displeased me in any way or committed the worst sin of all: wasting my most precious resource which is my time. I completely stopped paying attention to average/basic chicks and went straight for the beautiful girls that would catch everyone's eyes at social events, and even then I tested them more than they tested me. My friends were shocked at some of the fine chicks that I declined to spend more time or effort with, or dropped, despite having them on hooks. Yet the more I raised my standards, the better quality women I landed. The women I got during those years, which led me to meeting my now wife, were the highest quality - not jut hot but they are feminine and lovely to be around - I ever got. The funniest thing is, all my friends think I'm punching above my weight, while those women think they're so lucky to get me.

So OP, you've made yourself a better man, believe in your values, and go fish in better ponds.

I see you are from or live in Australia.

Where are the ponds you were fishing in to get these girls (location).

What were you doing to meet them - cold approach, social circles?

Any specific information you can give would be helpful.

Post: #21

(11-06-2018 06:22 PM)jcardial Wrote:  Nightlife/Online dating:
Your conception of how picky women are is biased. You cite bars and online dating but they are disproportionately frequented by less desirable women (at least the ones open to meeting men). Since it is difficult and inherently higher risk to meet a quality guy in these places (reputations and intentions are much more nebulous than in a social circle), it is not at all a go-to method for the highest quality women.

Online and nightlife are far more convenient hunting grounds for men because the physical appearance of a woman is more or less sufficient for attraction and risk isn't nearly as much of an issue for men. It is well documented that women raise their standards quite a bit for a short term hookup where as men are almost universally willing to lower their standards quite a lot. It's no surprise since women expose themselves to pregnancy, possible violent abuse and bigger reputation damage. Of course the public meat market venues are mostly packed with thirsty men and end up lopsided in favor of the women.

The upper echelon of women:
A dismal meat market economy doesn't translate to women having insane standards in all contexts. The top 10-20% of women are regularly invited into social circles and private events where they are pursued by worthy male counterparts in much lower risk scenarios (e.g. introductions from trusted friends and colleagues). The same guy who an attractive woman openly talks to at one of these events might have gotten a bitchy rejection in a bar or a flake on Tinder because she was there just for the attention fill.

When you date an even moderately attractive girl you will notice she gets invited to more private parties than she can even go to. An 8+'s phone lights up like a Christmas tree 24/7 with invites from both men and women. She has very little need to risk mingling with total randoms and it likely takes a guy well above her level to justify the risk. If she does end up at a bar or club, it's usually to socialize with a group and not with the plan of meeting randoms (like it is for 99% of men). An average or slightly above average girl on the other hand is much more likely to get ignored at said parties if she gets invited at all. She is far more compelled to throw caution to the wind and hit the bar or online dating where better looking guys give her plenty of attention at least in the short term.

Social circle:
Even the few guys who are getting attractive women in nightlife are usually leveraging social circle to some degree. The best women care an order of magnitude more about who you know and what those people are saying about you than whether your body fat is 13% or 9%. Obviously being in good shape is an advantage but keep in mind that it is in fairly high supply for women since most young guys lift and keep their body fat in line. Being built like an ancient Greek statue is pretty useless in practice if you have limited or no access. The best access comes with the best social connections, which take time and skill to build.

The attractive women are hanging out somewhere, but if you come across as thirsty and a bit frustrated like the OP most cool guys aren't going to even consider inviting you to their parties. Why would they if you're going to take but not give anything in return? Become the guy who clearly brings something of value to the table, not the calculating and overly entitled guy focused on getting what he thinks he "deserves."

While some physical attraction is necessary for the best women, it's not nearly as much of a sufficient factor that it is for men. Humans evolved in social hierarchies and your social status is a huge factor regardless of how much you've self improved in a vacuum. The best women want to date the guy who is respected and desired by other high value people because it is hard evidence that he carries genes that are built for real world success. Indecisive by nature, women gladly outsource most of the decision regarding who they date to the social hierarchy. Online dating or bars thwarts this point of reference quite a bit unless you are rolling with a celebrity entourage or the biggest promoter in your city. A woman not being able to see a man's social circle is akin to a man not being able to see a woman's body.

Cliff notes: Bars and online dating are typically avoided or not taken seriously by the top women and have always been saturated with thirsty men looking for a convenient shortcut. If you're a top guy you will almost always be slumming it by default. Networking and leveraging social circle are the only tried and true ways to reliably get an "equal" or to do well for yourself with only rare exceptions.

Dude, this is a fantastic post. All of this is stuff I vaguely suspected, but your explanation adds a ton of clarity in my head. It's so consistent with my own experience. Occasionally I do get serious interest from a hottie on an app or at a bar, but they're always the introverted/slightly awkward type... which makes perfect sense, because those are the only hot girls not flooded with social opportunities that beat the hell out of bars and dating apps. Girls who come off confident and well-connected, and aren't fatasses, feel totally off limits. Now I don't mind a shy hottie one bit, but there are obviously far too few of them to go around.

What I still struggle with is: For grown adults out in the real world, who/where are these high-status social circles? In college, it's pretty straight-forward; the hot girls hang out with the top frats and varsity athletes. What's the equivalent after college? I'm not a friendless shut-in, but I've haven't once witnessed a private social gathering with an ample supply of reasonably attractive girls since graduating college. As I progressed through my 20's, "house parties" became tame affairs where nearly everyone is overweight and dressed one step above pajamas if even that... which is totally fine, nothing wrong with a chill night, but obviously not useful for getting laid. I only ever see multiple girls who seem to care about their appearance at one of a few certain bars on Saturday nights. Maybe this is a city/suburbs thing.

Post: #22

(11-06-2018 08:35 PM)GT777733 Wrote:  I see you are from or live in Australia.

Where are the ponds you were fishing in to get these girls (location).

What were you doing to meet them - cold approach, social circles?

Any specific information you can give would be helpful.

I cold approached them at:

- Live music venues

- Dance venues (sometimes this and the above are the same)

- Formal balls or big social functions (like charity fundraisers) - there's an element of social circles here e.g I went to a few student balls through people I know, although I was already in my early 30s.

- Cultural festivals

- Arts and farmers markets (ones popular with tourists, they attract young foreign women)

- Sport competitions - I compete in lifting and boxing, and while the chicks involved are mediocre, when they compete, they always bring along cute girlfriends for support

My rule was simple: if I see a pretty girl who looks happy and is enjoying herself, I approach with no hesitation. Most of the time the girl turned out to be foreign, not Australian.

I stayed completely away from bars and clubs, and never did online dating.

Post: #23

(11-07-2018 02:46 AM)StrikeBack Wrote:  

(11-06-2018 08:35 PM)GT777733 Wrote:  I see you are from or live in Australia.

Where are the ponds you were fishing in to get these girls (location).

What were you doing to meet them - cold approach, social circles?

Any specific information you can give would be helpful.

I cold approached them at:

- Live music venues

- Dance venues (sometimes this and the above are the same)

- Formal balls or big social functions (like charity fundraisers) - there's an element of social circles here e.g I went to a few student balls through people I know, although I was already in my early 30s.

- Cultural festivals

- Arts and farmers markets (ones popular with tourists, they attract young foreign women)

- Sport competitions - I compete in lifting and boxing, and while the chicks involved are mediocre, when they compete, they always bring along cute girlfriends for support

My rule was simple: if I see a pretty girl who looks happy and is enjoying herself, I approach with no hesitation. Most of the time the girl turned out to be foreign, not Australian.

I stayed completely away from bars and clubs, and never did online dating.

Thank you for taking the time to respond and for sharing those venues.

It's interesting you say foreign girls. If I have to be fair, I think they are in a different category - I've also got foreign girls here because they open their minds and are open to meeting new people (and aren't worried about being judged).

I also live in Australia, and I've found that it's close to impossible to get the hottest local girls here. You have to be in their social circles otherwise you simply don't have the leverage and status. If you do get one - it's usually an off cast chick who never joined the popular group at school or was a late bloomer and didn't get involved in the social scene heavily, and you can't get those girls with any sort of consistency because they just aren't very common.

That's one thing about Australia - if you are a local guy, it's very clicky socially and judgemental socially in a lot of places unlike anywhere else I've been in the world except for some parts of America. The exception to that are the big cities like Melbourne and Sydney where girls may move for work and are forced to be a bit more open minded - but you are paying through the roof in living costs in those places the closer to the CBD you live.

Another question I would have is that if most of these girls are foreigners - how do you go with the visa/residency situation for a LTR? It's one thing to have a casual relationship while she is travelling abroad and having a bit of fun and she's in the mindset to do that, but it's a different ballgame to make the logistics work for an LTR if she doesn't have or get an Australian residency. That stuff can get messy.

Post: #24

(11-07-2018 03:37 AM)GT777733 Wrote:  That's one thing about Australia - if you are a local guy, it's very clicky socially and judgemental socially in a lot of places unlike anywhere else I've been in the world except for some parts of America. The exception to that are the big cities like Melbourne and Sydney where girls may move for work and are forced to be a bit more open minded - but you are paying through the roof in living costs in those places the closer to the CBD you live.

Maybe in comparison to rural areas or small towns...but I find that people in Melbourne are pretty damn cliquey.

Post: #25

(11-07-2018 02:46 AM)StrikeBack Wrote:  I cold approached them at:

- Live music venues

- Dance venues (sometimes this and the above are the same)

Was this Latin dancing (salsa, bachata...?) or something else? Did you find you had more success with any particular dance style, either because it attracted hotter girls or because it was more conducive to pick up?