Post: #1

This will be my first data sheet, and it's on a topic so many of us adore: Money. First of all, this isn't a get rich quick scheme, this takes time, effort, belief, and education. I will not claim to be worth 8 figures, yet, but the path is clear, and if you put an honest effort into your pursuits, whatever they may be, you will succeed (if not the first try, there is a bottom that you can climb back out of). I will continue to update this as I build my business, learn new techniques and ideas, and meet new mentors. But to start this off, I will give you a list of books that I generally found insightful and just all around great reads.

-Mastery by Robert Greene
-48 Laws of Power by the same.
-The Icarus Deception by Seth Godin
-The Millionare Mind by Thomas J. Stanley
-The Millionaire Next Door by the same.
-Rich Dad Poor Dad be Robert Kiyosaki
-Real Estate Riches by Dolf de Roos
-How to be a Real Estate Investor by Phil Pustejovsky

If you guys have further reading, I would love to hear it, books are the best investment you can make. It all begins with the mindset that these books instil. In order to get to a point of wealth, you need to have the mindset that most people cannot develop.

In order to be truly wealthy, you need to work for freedom. Money leads to the freedom, but for different people, different amounts of this resource are needed to achieve their dreams. You may want the private jets, or you may want the quiet cabin in the wilderness. Regardless, all men trade the most valuable resource of all: time. I would even argue that you could have all the money in the world, but if you don't have the time to do the things and be with the people you love, you are not wealthy.

So in all reality, even though you are seeking the almighty dollar, it is really the all powerful grandfather clock you are working against, with hopefully enough time left to really live your life. What the masses do not understand is that being an employee is slow suicide. But the manosphere gets this notion, so I needn't delve much deeper.

There are several avenues to riches, but none of them are paved through employee town. You will be working for other people, making them rich in the process, and selling your life for dollars and cents. So, what are your other options? You can build a business, or you can be an investor. Or you can do both. Or if you really love your line of work, you can continue to work while doing either or both (i.e. lawyers and doctors that start their own outfits). Regardless, you want to get out of that employers shadow as quickly as possible.

So, find what you truly love, and start selling it. Sounds simpler than it is, but if you find your niche, you can monetize it. For myself, that niche is real estate. For others, it could be in production, medicine, services, anything. If you truly enjoy it, you will find a way that you can make money from it.

Now this is where you start to amass wealth and become free.

But what do you do with that money? You do not spend it on the cars, clothes and the hoes just yet. You leverage that money. This is where people fall off, this is where someone that makes 200k a year will either become a financial powerhouse or a blunder. What do the masses do with an ever increasing income? They go and buy things, things they don't necessarily need, and fall into debt (and not the good kind of debt, because there IS a good kind) that they cannot crawl out of, so they have to continually keep making more and more money, and then they go buy a bigger house, a better car, and more shit they don't need.

But you're different.

You take that 200k, you live off of 50. You now have 150k that you can risk to create massive returns. You go and buy Assets that generate a monthly or annual return. Some people think that a home they live in is an asset... Fuck no, if it doesn't make you money, it is a liability. Assets include stocks, bonds, real estate (rentals/flips/wholeselling), companies you own, receivables on loans, and the like.

When I spoke of GOOD debt, I mean debt that you are making money on. So if you pay a mortgage every month, but you are pulling in money from rent in a positive cash-flow, thats some good ass debt. If you are paying that mortgage and don't have a tenant, or are living in the home yourself, that is bad debt. People don't understand that leverage is how Donald Trump built his empire, and how countless (and maybe even yourself) smaller investors have set themselves free.

Now, in order to get truly rich and wealthy (free), you need to live like most people will not to eventually live like others will never be able to. You take the profits from these assets, and your income, and you re-invest it. You do this for a decade, and you quit your job. You are now free. You can either continue to invest year after year and create a ridiculous portfolio, or live off of your measly 500k passive income you make every year.

Passive income is the way to true freedom. Location independent income is okay, but you continually have to work for that. Want to sip wine in the south of France with a couple models to accompany you while you're still raking in money without lifting a finger? Passive income.

Thanks for reading that wall of text, and I believe every single one of us can truly set ourselves free. It just involves front loading with hard work and seeing the potential a dollar can have. People say money doesn't grow on trees, that's because they haven't planted one yet.

Post: #2

In what do we invest?

Vanguard index funds/IRA?


Roth IRA? Company 401(k) (if an employee)?

I'm all for keeping expenses low and investing 50% of my income, but I am looking for specific investment strategies, with the overall strategy being passive investment, not getting caught up too much in normal, everyday market volatility but instead simply:

- keeping living costs down
- investing 50% or more of my income
- reinvesting profits into further investments
- not selling when the market is down, knowing that it eventually always goes back up

Besides investing the full $5,500 into a Vanguard IRA, in what else do I invest without having to fiddle around with it too much/without checking it at all? (Or once or twice a year)

Post: #3

I would highly recommend not investing in those funds, and investing in your own business, real estate, or stocks and bonds of your choosing.

Because you want to be hands off, I would recommend real estate, or buy and hold blue chip stock. Real estate I personally enjoy due to the interaction with people (screening of tenants, collecting rents), but that can be outsourced to a property management company for a percentage of the rental income every month (usually about 2-5%).

I am from Canada, and the 401k is very similar to the RRSP government backed retirement plan. However, there is a maximum contribution every year, and due to the fact you can't take it out before retirement at a heavy penalty (here it is almost 17% last I checked), its a terrible investment for returns on an annual basis that you can actually realize (touch).

Post: #4

Best book I recommend is one which is over 100 years old:

THE RICHEST MAN IN BABYLON by George S. Clason.

http://www.ccsales.com/the_richest_man_in_babylon.pdf

Within you find all the principles explained - adhering to them will generate wealth - depending on your skill-level, seed capital and determination more or less quickly.

Post: #5

(11-28-2014 08:20 PM)TheFinalEpic Wrote:  I am from Canada, and the 401k is very similar to the RRSP government backed retirement plan. However, there is a maximum contribution every year and due to the fact you can't take it out before retirement at a heavy penalty (here it is almost 17% last I checked), its a terrible investment for returns on an annual basis that you can actually realize (touch).

But what about TFSAs? I'm sure you already know this, but you can take the money out at anytime tax-free. The TFSA is capped at $5500 max contribution a year from its inception, but you get to contribute to it as much as you like provided you didn't already contribute the maximum in the years prior.

Since I opened mine in 2014, I can contribute the sum of the previous 5 years' limits as well. So really I can put in around $25,000 if I wanted. Next year's limit for a brand new TFSA will be ~$30,000 etc.

Pretty good deal for the new young investor.

Post: #6

You had me until Kiyosaki's name showed up. That man is an abject fraud and lies about everything from his military record, his real estate deals to the very existence of "rich dad." This guy breaks it down the best.

But the rest of those books are solid.

Post: #7

Real estate can be a crappy investment. It is not very liquid, has wild swings, and if a rental oriented business it is full of headaches.

Want to be rich without MLM marketing crap or insider trading or drug trafficking/gambling?

1. Create something of actual value, whether physical or intellectual property.
2. Get a decent professional job, save as much as possible, marry up, invest everything in an S&P 500 index fund.
3. Inherit wealth, and don't waste it on drugs or foolish investments (S&P 500 index fund is the way to go).

Post: #8

Volando, what would you say to guys here getting out of high school or around that age?

What about guys in their 20s or 30s?

When do young men start to invest?

It's hard to invest in an index fund when you are young and lacking in experience. The temptation is to travel, go out, socialize, fail a lot but learn as well. In short, to live your life and find out where you are meant to stand in the world.

It's hard to reconcile those divergent aspirations and I'm wondering what advice you would give to younger guys.

Post: #9

(11-29-2014 04:27 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  Best book I recommend is one which is over 100 years old:

THE RICHEST MAN IN BABYLON by George S. Clason.

http://www.ccsales.com/the_richest_man_in_babylon.pdf

Within you find all the principles explained - adhering to them will generate wealth - depending on your skill-level, seed capital and determination more or less quickly.

I will certainly give that one a read, thank you!

Quote:But what about TFSAs? I'm sure you already know this, but you can take the money out at anytime tax-free. The TFSA is capped at $5500 max contribution a year from its inception, but you get to contribute to it as much as you like provided you didn't already contribute the maximum in the years prior.

Since I opened mine in 2014, I can contribute the sum of the previous 5 years' limits as well. So really I can put in around $25,000 if I wanted. Next year's limit for a brand new TFSA will be ~$30,000 etc.

Pretty good deal for the new young investor.

I personally use the TFSA to invest in the TSX, NASDAQ, and DOW. I love the market, and controlling my own funds. People do not enjoy playing stocks because it is risky, don't get me wrong. But, if you do your research, the risk is highly alleviated. I trade through the major banks, because the commissions are now regulated, so trading through smaller firms is negated now (at least in Canada)

Quote:You had me until Kiyosaki's name showed up. That man is an abject fraud and lies about everything from his military record, his real estate deals to the very existence of "rich dad." This guy breaks it down the best.

But the rest of those books are solid.

I don't disagree, and have read many places that he is indeed a fraud. However, the book gets you into the correct MINDSET. It is truly the mind that can make you rich, and the first thing you have to do is unplug from being an employee to looking for opportunity on your own.

Post: #10

(11-29-2014 09:06 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  Real estate can be a crappy investment. It is not very liquid, has wild swings, and if a rental oriented business it is full of headaches.

Want to be rich without MLM marketing crap or insider trading or drug trafficking/gambling?

1. Create something of actual value, whether physical or intellectual property.
2. Get a decent professional job, save as much as possible, marry up, invest everything in an S&P 500 index fund.
3. Inherit wealth, and don't waste it on drugs or foolish investments (S&P 500 index fund is the way to go).

1. It's truly what floats your boat. I enjoy those headaches, and also minimize them through proper screening of tenants, as well as the use of game (being a social person with the ability to read people is a major asset in the world of business, let alone letting people live on your property).
2. You can do this, but it is not a sure way to getting rich. Saving is a way to a stable nest egg, but I'm talking about getting rich. If you read Felix Dennis' book "How to get Rich" (I can't believe I forgot to list this one!) he states rich isn't until you have over 16 million in liquid assets or 75 million in total assets. You will not get there with a day job, no matter how hard you try.
3. Inheriting wealth is also literally who you were born to, you cannot affect it. Why is it that over 85% of millionaires are self-made? Also, I personally made 27% on the market this year, no index fund is going to do that for you.

You are into playing it safe, I can tell. But I am not so risk averse, and to truly get rich, you need to know when to take those risks. Read "The Millionaire Mind" in my book list.

Quote:Volando, what would you say to guys here getting out of high school or around that age?

What about guys in their 20s or 30s?

When do young men start to invest?

It's hard to invest in an index fund when you are young and lacking in experience. The temptation is to travel, go out, socialize, fail a lot but learn as well. In short, to live your life and find out where you are meant to stand in the world.

It's hard to reconcile those divergent aspirations and I'm wondering what advice you would give to younger guys.

You should start to invest literally whenever you can. Put a few dollars away every week, and go play the market with them. You are young, you can take risks, and if they pay off, they are usually pretty rewarding. I am in my early 20s, but it is never too late or too early to educate yourself on investing and getting into the game.

Investing in index funds is literally the easiest way to get into the market and the safest, do a little more research my friend. If you are into "failing a lot but learning" then you can take the risks I've previously stated and see what happens.

I agree with the travelling and living your life, but if you do it in moderation and with intelligence, you can have both. In the very early stages, you will have to make sacrifices and you need to evaluate whether they are worth it. For me, giving up a few years to build businesses, learn to invest, and free myself from the drudgery that is a job is worth it in a heartbeat. At 30, guess what, you're going to be travelling the world while everyone you know is going to be working a high 5 figure job, while you are living freedom.

Edit: By giving up a few years, I mean not going out drinking every weekend, limiting yourself to spending money out once a month, and not buying things you don't need. I see people in college with $3.10 in their bank accounts. That never was me, I would forgo the idiocy of most events, day game, and learn real social skills that didn't come from a bottle. When I go out on the town, I know people in the industry, so I don't have any cost of entry or drinks, and I'm usually sober (sometimes these guys in the industry are great to talk to involving business when they're not plastered out of their minds).

The choice is up to you.

Post: #11

You, or some generic person may indeed earn a 27% return in a given year. But you will never average that sort of ROI year over year.
Anyone who says they do is either a liar or using insider trading.
That's the whole point of an indexing fund. With the S&P 500 you are looking at slightly over double the rate of inflation over time.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/20/your-m...funds.html

"When the stock market rose 30 percent in 2013, plenty of fund managers had a triumphant year.
Almost anyone can post good numbers in a bull market, though. It’s like sprinting downhill with the wind at your back: The chances are good that you’ll be pleased with your own performance.
Outperforming most other people consistently, year in and year out, is obviously a much more difficult feat, in any competition. But how rare is it, exactly, for stock market investing?"

"The S.&P. Dow Jones team looked at 2,862 mutual funds that had been operating for at least 12 months as of March 2010. Those funds were all broad, actively managed domestic stock funds. (The study excluded narrowly focused sector funds and leveraged funds that, essentially, used borrowed money to magnify their returns.)
The team selected the 25 percent of funds with the best performance over the 12 months through March 2010. Then the analysts asked how many of those funds — those in the top quarter for the original 12-month period — actually remained in the top quarter for the four succeeding 12-month periods through March 2014.
The answer was a vanishingly small number: Just 0.07 percent of the initial 2,862 funds managed to achieve top-quartile performance for those five successive years. If you do the math, that works out to just two funds. Put another way, 99.93 percent, or 2,860 of the 2,862 funds, failed the test."

Post: #12

(11-29-2014 09:38 AM)Yeti Wrote:  Volando, what would you say to guys here getting out of high school or around that age?

What about guys in their 20s or 30s?

When do young men start to invest?

It's hard to invest in an index fund when you are young and lacking in experience. The temptation is to travel, go out, socialize, fail a lot but learn as well. In short, to live your life and find out where you are meant to stand in the world.

It's hard to reconcile those divergent aspirations and I'm wondering what advice you would give to younger guys.

Investing in an index fund in your 20s is a great thing to do. The younger the better. One of the best things about it, is it requires no experience or thought. You just pick an index (S&P 500 probably the best), look for the lowest fee indexing fund that doesn't cheat you, and that's it. Shovel money into it, and know that over time, you are winning. When you see the news about American corporate this or that, guess what? You've got a piece of the action. And even if one company does poorly, others are doing well, and since you are now in a small way part of the House/Casino Owner, you always win.
Over time the compound interest will provide you with a path to wealth.
Get rich quick is the same as its always been, a fool's dream.
Don't buy a get rich quick book by whatever Guru of the month is in vogue. Many of those guys are outright charlatans.

Post: #13

(11-29-2014 11:24 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  You, or some generic person may indeed earn a 27% return in a given year. But you will never average that sort of ROI year over year.
Anyone who says they do is either a liar or using insider trading.
That's the whole point of an indexing fund. With the S&P 500 you are looking at slightly over double the rate of inflation over time.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/20/your-m...funds.html

"When the stock market rose 30 percent in 2013, plenty of fund managers had a triumphant year.
Almost anyone can post good numbers in a bull market, though. It’s like sprinting downhill with the wind at your back: The chances are good that you’ll be pleased with your own performance.
Outperforming most other people consistently, year in and year out, is obviously a much more difficult feat, in any competition. But how rare is it, exactly, for stock market investing?"

"The S.&P. Dow Jones team looked at 2,862 mutual funds that had been operating for at least 12 months as of March 2010. Those funds were all broad, actively managed domestic stock funds. (The study excluded narrowly focused sector funds and leveraged funds that, essentially, used borrowed money to magnify their returns.)
The team selected the 25 percent of funds with the best performance over the 12 months through March 2010. Then the analysts asked how many of those funds — those in the top quarter for the original 12-month period — actually remained in the top quarter for the four succeeding 12-month periods through March 2014.
The answer was a vanishingly small number: Just 0.07 percent of the initial 2,862 funds managed to achieve top-quartile performance for those five successive years. If you do the math, that works out to just two funds. Put another way, 99.93 percent, or 2,860 of the 2,862 funds, failed the test.

This year, was an interesting one, especially through October where I was pretty much down to 2% on my initial investment, there was so much speculation that people were hopping ship the first they heard of Ebola, through all the issues in Ukraine and Russia, etc. etc. etc. I was and currently am in aerospace (which took a massive hit with Ebola), aluminum, tech, and gas and oil. All I am saying is do the research, look into the financials, don't just pick with your eyes closed what you want to invest in. Stock brokers just want to make a commission off you, so I wouldn't take advice from them any more than I'd take advice from people not involved in the stocks they are talking about.

You do also have to realize that some mutuals make 80% and some make 4%. So this study takes the "top quartile" which could have made the 80%, and then are not performing "as well" in the following years, correct? Even if they aren't performing as well, they are still out performing the S&P 500 (probably by a huge margin). However, mutuals are pretty lack luster, and you are better picking your own stock, just a personal opinion. It takes money to make money in the stock market, had I had 100k in, or a million in, the performance is magnified that many more times.

Post: #14

(11-29-2014 11:37 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  Investing in an index fund in your 20s is a great thing to do. The younger the better. One of the best things about it, is it requires no experience or thought. You just pick an index (S&P 500 probably the best), look for the lowest fee indexing fund that doesn't cheat you, and that's it. Shovel money into it, and know that over time, you are winning. When you see the news about American corporate this or that, guess what? You've got a piece of the action. And even if one company does poorly, others are doing well, and since you are now in a small way part of the House/Casino Owner, you always win.
Over time the compound interest will provide you with a path to wealth.
Get rich quick is the same as its always been, a fool's dream.
Don't buy a get rich quick book by whatever Guru of the month is in vogue. Many of those guys are outright charlatans.

Index funds are better than having your money in a savings account, I agree. Traditionally, the market gives about a 7-9% return every year which is a larger growth than inflation. However, inflation averages about 2-3% so you're really making about 4-7%. If you have lots of disposable income, throw it into an index fund and watch it grow, but this is more of a plan for retirement than to truly get rich.

Post: #15

(11-29-2014 11:40 AM)TheFinalEpic Wrote:  

(11-29-2014 11:24 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  You, or some generic person may indeed earn a 27% return in a given year. But you will never average that sort of ROI year over year.
Anyone who says they do is either a liar or using insider trading.
That's the whole point of an indexing fund. With the S&P 500 you are looking at slightly over double the rate of inflation over time.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/20/your-m...funds.html

"When the stock market rose 30 percent in 2013, plenty of fund managers had a triumphant year.
Almost anyone can post good numbers in a bull market, though. It’s like sprinting downhill with the wind at your back: The chances are good that you’ll be pleased with your own performance.
Outperforming most other people consistently, year in and year out, is obviously a much more difficult feat, in any competition. But how rare is it, exactly, for stock market investing?"

"The S.&P. Dow Jones team looked at 2,862 mutual funds that had been operating for at least 12 months as of March 2010. Those funds were all broad, actively managed domestic stock funds. (The study excluded narrowly focused sector funds and leveraged funds that, essentially, used borrowed money to magnify their returns.)
The team selected the 25 percent of funds with the best performance over the 12 months through March 2010. Then the analysts asked how many of those funds — those in the top quarter for the original 12-month period — actually remained in the top quarter for the four succeeding 12-month periods through March 2014.
The answer was a vanishingly small number: Just 0.07 percent of the initial 2,862 funds managed to achieve top-quartile performance for those five successive years. If you do the math, that works out to just two funds. Put another way, 99.93 percent, or 2,860 of the 2,862 funds, failed the test.

This year, was an interesting one, especially through October where I was pretty much down to 2% on my initial investment, there was so much speculation that people were hopping ship the first they heard of Ebola, through all the issues in Ukraine and Russia, etc. etc. etc. I was and currently am in aerospace (which took a massive hit with Ebola), aluminum, tech, and gas and oil. All I am saying is do the research, look into the financials, don't just pick with your eyes closed what you want to invest in. Stock brokers just want to make a commission off you, so I wouldn't take advice from them any more than I'd take advice from people not involved in the stocks they are talking about.

You do also have to realize that some mutuals make 80% and some make 4%. So this study takes the "top quartile" which could have made the 80%, and then are not performing "as well" in the following years, correct? Even if they aren't performing as well, they are still out performing the S&P 500 (probably by a huge margin). However, mutuals are pretty lack luster, and you are better picking your own stock, just a personal opinion. It takes money to make money in the stock market, had I had 100k in, or a million in, the performance is magnified that many more times.

Just so you know, the Vanguard S&P fund he mentioned is basically the same as your buy & hold Blue Chip recommendation. It's an Index Fund. Vanguard's S&P and other funds are famous for not charging management fees, are "no load", and only charge an fractional %.

Anyway, someone can do all these things: buy real estate, start a business venture, utilize index funds, which is also how you diversify.

Regarding real estate, one other point is that while living in a property you own may be "bad debt" it could (depending on the details) be worse debt to rent a property and not own anything. So buying and living in a place may be your first step to property or investment stage 2.

Generally I think your recommendations are good by the way. Earn/save/invest/invest in yourself.

Post: #16

(11-29-2014 11:53 AM)The_CEO Wrote:  Just so you know, the Vanguard S&P fund he mentioned is basically the same as your buy & hold Blue Chip recommendation. It's an Index Fund. Vanguard's S&P and other funds are famous for not charging management fees, are "no load", and only charge an fractional %.

Anyway, someone can do all these things: buy real estate, start a business venture, utilize index funds, which is also how you diversify.

Regarding real estate, one other point is that while living in a property you own may be "bad debt" it could (depending on the details) be worse debt to rent a property and not own anything. So buying and living in a place may be your first step to property or investment stage 2.

Generally I think your recommendations are good by the way. Earn/save/invest/invest in yourself.

Diversifying in all these sectors if truly the way to wealth and freedom. You are correct about the real estate and how it could be worse debt (tenant trashes the place, huge maintenance fees, etc.) than living in the property yourself. You can always rent out a room in the place you are living to alleviate mortgage costs, and live for far less every month. It all the little things that you can do. The vision for myself is creating a REIT, thats why the real estate keeps coming up.

Thanks very much, if you have any other recommendations, I'd love to hear them. This is a discussion on getting rich, and there are many avenues. I'd love to hear from yourself, Gringuito, Trainwreck and other guys that have done what I aim to do.

Post: #17

Volando: I understand what you are saying. If young guys have the money, they should invest early.

But I think that realistically, your advice may not be that much of an option for a lot of guys on here.

This is a forum for masculine self-improvement. A lot of that improvement costs money and at least when you are young, it's arguably more worthwhile spending money on game, networking, education, etc.

Let's say that you're 20 and you can and do invest $1,500 each year into a .2% fee index fund, probably with Vanguard. That's $15,000 when you're 30, plus whatever that fund made for you. You'll probably have about doubled your money. So $30,000 when you're 30.

Versus another 20-year-old who used that $1,500 each year to travel, learn, try his hand at various things and learn at life, to an extent not possible if he had invested it. He comes out smarter and wiser than the guy who invested.

I'd take the second option. I am going to live a long time, and I have time to invest and build wealth. When I fucked up a lot in my 20s traveling through Peru, or when I had a lot of fun going out in Tokyo, I ultimately put myself into a position in my 30s to know what I wanted in life. This would have not been possible had I been overly concerned with making money when I was young.

I think that it comes down to this: you can start building your wealth relatively late in your life, so long as you start doing so when you truly understand why you want it and what kind of life it can afford you. True freedom to do what makes you happy. Remain debt-free and learn as much as you can, and you'll be in a good position to start.

OP: I see what you're saying now, you want to be truly rich, which for you means millions of dollars. We just have different ideas of what it means to be rich. For me, being rich is having enough money to live modestly but with the freedom to do what I enjoy.

Post: #18

(11-29-2014 12:16 PM)Yeti Wrote:  Volando: I understand what you are saying. If young guys have the money, they should invest early.

But I think that realistically, your advice may not be that much of an option for a lot of guys on here.

This is a forum for masculine self-improvement. A lot of that improvement costs money and at least when you are young, it's arguably more worthwhile spending money on game, networking, education, etc.

Let's say that you're 20 and you can and do invest $1,500 each year into a .2% fee index fund, probably with Vanguard. That's $15,000 when you're 30, plus whatever that fund made for you. You'll probably have about doubled your money. So $30,000 when you're 30.

Versus another 20-year-old who used that $1,500 each year to travel, learn, try his hand at various things and learn at life, to an extent not possible if he had invested it. He comes out smarter and wiser than the guy who invested.

I'd take the second option. I am going to live a long time, and I have time to invest and build wealth. When I fucked up a lot in my 20s traveling through Peru, or when I had a lot of fun going out in Tokyo, I ultimately put myself into a position in my 30s to know what I wanted in life. This would have not been possible had I been overly concerned with making money when I was young.

I think that it comes down to this: you can start building your wealth relatively late in your life, so long as you start doing so when you truly understand why you want it and what kind of life it can afford you. True freedom to do what makes you happy. Remain debt-free and learn as much as you can, and you'll be in a good position to start.

OP: I see what you're saying now, you want to be truly rich, which for you means millions of dollars. We just have different ideas of what it means to be rich. For me, being rich is having enough money to live modestly but with the freedom to do what I enjoy.

You get it 100%, and good for you that you are living the life that you want. As I stated in the original post, being rich is subjective, it could be the outlandish stuff of the simple life with the freedom to do what you want. My number is 9 figures, for some, it could be 9 grand.

You can start building wealth later in life, but it is best to hop on the train as soon as you can, especially using Volandos advice, because it has to do with compounding interest: the more years you are making interest, the more it compounds and the more you have to retire with/go on vacation with, whatever you want.

Post: #19

To say that 75 MM in total assets is the cut off for rich is just plain ridiculous.
The figure for UHNW used by private banks/asset management companies is 30 MM.
And really, unless you are living in a major international city like NYC or London or SF or Tokyo, you are rich with a fraction of that.
After accounting for inflation and taxes, 10 MM in an index fund or other stable investment, should net you something like 500,000 a year to live off. That's a high class income in Manhattan, in many parts of Brazil or Peru or similar, it makes you part of the elite that is above the law.

Post: #20

Frankly the rules of THE RICHEST MAN OF BABYLON apply everywhere:

1. Create an income
2. Save 10-50% or more of your income - control your spending
3. Invest said income wisely for money to generate income itself
4. Always take into account potential loss, distribution of risk as soon as possible
5. Own your property - though that one is usually correct, it depends on the property market - in some regions or countries renting a property can be more profitable, if you can invest the excess capital more wisely.
6. Plan long-term while sometimes foregoing short-term pleasures
7. Increase your earning capability

Now a few notices regarding investments. While there may have been cases of people who invested broadly following the S&P500 or usually making less than the index and became wealthy, it is not usually the case.

I would also be careful when quoting the mainstream regarding 85% being self-made millionaires. Part of it is pure inflation, a lot of is increase of property value that the parents have bought and paid for, for women the majority is having married the right kind of man, for many it is having gotten a good job and earned six figures for decades, while in many more cases those millionaires have been guys who have started out with 500k to 900k and managed to increase it to over one mil. The number of real self-made success stories is way lower.

Now of course it can be done, it is just less common than the business magazines let you believe. In any case - almost all highly successful men I know did NOT make their money by just saving and blindly investing in a fund and waking up at 50 with high 7 digits in their stock accounts. Frankly I met in my former career at private banks quite a few successful MDs and lawyers who lost most of their money that way.

Most wealthy guys made their money by investing in something that they were very familiar with or they had the good fortune of getting to know someone who was an absolute top-notch expert at it. Some of them just needed to have the ability of being able to spot a winner.

Most men I knew opened their own business and made it into a success story. Sometimes it was something as humble as a hot-dog stand in a good location that netted the guy millions over they years. In other cases it was their 50th job he started out while being 45 and realizing that his passion and talent was being a damn good real estate agent and later real estate investor. Other guys were simple programmers who created small companies that were later sold to bigger ones at a major profit. Once I met a MD who started collecting paintings, because that was his passion - he was extremely good at it and his children and grandchildren inherited a collection worth close to one billion $ decades later.

What I want to say by that is that it is better to invest in one field you are an absolute expert at than to throw cash around where you don't know head from tail. That's why most people should rather not invest broadly in the Stock Market or any kind of fund. It is fine for diversification after you reached high 7-9 figures, but not when you wish to reach 7 figures in the first place.

Yes - there are funds that make sometimes 50%, 70% or even more per annum for a period, but you would have to know why their return is so high in those years. Some of them lose 45% in other years. Many of the best super-funds which have a consistent high return are often closed or only available to ultra-high-net-worth-individuals.

As far as the right investment skill is concerned - if your interests are not aligned with a field that can net a lot, then become an expert in one field that can potentially earn you some dough. Frankly - it is not really rocket science.

One example: Let's assume you have no Harvard law or MIT STEM degree and no capital. Go work some back-breaking well-paid job in the oil fields, as a bouncer at a High End Nightclub etc., stack the cash, cut down spending for a few years. Save up to 200k or more. Move to EE, FSU or SEA & use the capital to open a McDonald's. (amount varies from country to country and depends on time - in some countries it was up until recently as low as 100k) You go through the management academy and then open your first restaurant. Since it is a massive growth business in most of those countries, you can open another one and more later on. Not only will you enjoy slimmer hotter pussy in those countries, but the entire path from start to finish might have only taken you 5-10 years.

For all those here who wish to invest their hard earned 25k while trading, I would rather advise them to become an expert trader first. Studying, then virtually investing and succeeding and only later on starting trading with a professional money-management plan in place. It is easier said then done. My example with the simple worker made McDonalds millionaire is by far easier to attain.

I would wager that most guys who made their 7-figure+ cash here have done so via some kind of business or smart investments. Even if you did it via trading or real estate, then you have made those fields your business and you are an expert in it.

With the exception of women of course - the wide majority of them makes their money on their knees and their backs - the old fashioned way. Trust me - all private banking managers know this.

Post: #21

(11-29-2014 12:27 PM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  To say that 75 MM in total assets is the cut off for rich is just plain ridiculous.
The figure for UHNW used by private banks/asset management companies is 30 MM.
And really, unless you are living in a major international city like NYC or London or SF or Tokyo, you are rich with a fraction of that.
After accounting for inflation and taxes, 10 MM in an index fund or other stable investment, should net you something like 500,000 a year to live off. That's a high class income in Manhattan, in many parts of Brazil or Peru or similar, it makes you part of the elite that is above the law.

I was told by not only people off this forum, but personal contacts that a person who has amassed 10m in assets is not going to settle for 5% returns per annum. It becomes a game sooner or later, you look for ventures to get in to, you look for other ways to grow that wealth. It is said the first million is the hardest. Like I stated, I'm not even content with 8 figures, but many and most people would be in dream land. To me, its a game, as long as I have a safety net of 40k a year, the rest is monopoly money to grow and grow many times over.

Post: #22

(11-29-2014 12:29 PM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  I would also be careful when quoting the mainstream regarding 85% being self-made millionaires. Part of it is pure inflation, a lot of is increase of property value that the parents have bought and paid for, for women the majority is having married the right kind of man, for many it is having gotten a good job and earned six figures for decades, while in many more cases those millionaires have been guys who have started out with 500k to 900k and managed to increase it to over one mil. The number of real self-made success stories is way lower.

Now of course it can be done, it is just less common than the business magazines let you believe. In any case - almost all highly successful men I know did NOT make their money by just saving and blindly investing in a fund and waking up at 50 with high 7 digits in their stock accounts. Frankly I met in my former career at private banks quite a few successful MDs and lawyers who lost most of their money that way.

Most wealthy guys made their money by investing in something that they were very familiar with or they had the good fortune of getting to know someone who was an absolute top-notch expert at it. Some of them just needed to have the ability of being able to spot a winner.

Most men I knew opened their own business and made it into a success story. Sometimes it was something as humble as a hot-dog stand in a good location that netted the guy millions over they years. In other cases it was their 50th job he started out while being 45 and realizing that his passion and talent was being a damn good real estate agent and later real estate investor. Other guys were simple programmers who created small companies that were later sold to bigger ones at a major profit. Once I met a MD who started collecting paintings, because that was his passion - he was extremely good at it and his children and grandchildren inherited a collection worth close to one billion $ decades later.

What I want to say by that is that it is better to invest in one field you are an absolute expert at than to throw cash around where you don't know head from tail. That's why most people should rather not invest broadly in the Stock Market or any kind of fund. It is fine for diversification after you reached high 7-9 figures, but not when you wish to reach 7 figures in the first place.

Yes - there are funds that make sometimes 50%, 70% or even more per annum for a period, but you would have to know why their return is so high in those years. Some of them lose 45% in other years. Many of the best super-funds which have a consistent high return are often closed or only available to ultra-high-net-worth-individuals.

As far as the right investment skill is concerned - if your interests are not aligned with a field that can net a lot, then become an expert in one field that can potentially earn you some dough. Frankly - it is not really rocket science.

For all those here who wish to invest their hard earned 25k while trading, I would rather advise them to become an expert trader first. Studying, then virtually investing and succeeding and only later on starting trading with a professional money-management plan in place. It is easier said then done. My example with the simple worker made McDonalds millionaire is by far easier to attain.

I would wager that most guys who made their 7-figure+ cash here have done so via some kind of business or smart investments. Even if you did it via trading or real estate, then you have made those fields your business and you are an expert in it.

What you are saying is find your niche, and exploit your knowledge of that sector. I like it. Now, with the 85% of millionaires being self made, I will respectfully disagree, due to the growth of tech start ups, I believe it is totally fathomable with all the internet millionaires nowadays that a majority of millionaires are actually self made. I would suggest reading "the millionaire mind", as he interviewed 1000+ millionaires in the states, and compiled data that precisely showed that statistic.

The McDonalds idea is interesting, because if you study foreign cultures, sometimes introducing a new product or in this case franchise is just what it needs to gain huge strides financially. I will research this more.

Post: #23

(11-29-2014 12:46 PM)TheFinalEpic Wrote:  ...
... I believe it is totally fathomable with all the internet millionaires nowadays that a majority of millionaires are actually self made. I would suggest reading "the millionaire mind", as he interviewed 1000+ millionaires in the states, and compiled data that precisely showed that statistic.

Yeah - but the statistics are basically this:

- average income 131.000$
- 57 years
- frugal
- 67% self-employed

Being a millionaire in 1980 was different than being one now. You could argue that they are self-made, but again it is not the number of internet-guys, but rather the high number of professionals - from welders, MDs, lawyers, etc. - anyone with a more or less decent job.

In the 1960s a completely untrained worker fresh off the boat European immigrant made 40k per year discounted inflation - but that 40k bought almost as much as 88k now. Millionaire nowadays seems often to be somone in the upper middle class who had kept his finances in order.

Forget that shit - what worked for 90% of those guys who came up through the 1970s-90s WILL NOT WORK for the current generation! You need a different strategy for the current times and austerity decades coming up.

Post: #24

(11-29-2014 01:56 PM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

(11-29-2014 12:46 PM)TheFinalEpic Wrote:  ...
... I believe it is totally fathomable with all the internet millionaires nowadays that a majority of millionaires are actually self made. I would suggest reading "the millionaire mind", as he interviewed 1000+ millionaires in the states, and compiled data that precisely showed that statistic.

Yeah - but the statistics are basically this:

- average income 131.000$
- 57 years
- frugal
- 67% self-employed

Being a millionaire in 1980 was different than being one now. You could argue that they are self-made, but again it is not the number of internet-guys, but rather the high number of professionals - from welders, MDs, lawyers, etc. - anyone with a more or less decent job.

In the 1960s a completely untrained worker fresh off the boat European immigrant made 40k per year discounted inflation - but that 40k bought almost as much as 88k now. Millionaire nowadays seems often to be somone in the upper middle class who had kept his finances in order.

Forget that shit - what worked for 90% of those guys who came up through the 1970s-90s WILL NOT WORK for the current generation! You need a different strategy for the current times and austerity decades coming up.

You speak of having a job, something that I stated is a one way ticket to middle-classdom. Unless you are using that money that you earn in the job to build wealth through investments and smart business decisions.

Being a millionaire in todays world is easy, we're talking RICH though, 8 figures and up. I would consider anyone with a net worth of less than $5 million to be upper middle class.

Edit: I'm loving the book so far!

Post: #25

Are you rich OP? Good post, but like with game advice, it carries more weight if you walked the walk and not just talked the talk.

I know a couple of people who are well off, one is 'rich' by relative terms already (in private banking levels) and one is only well off, but stacking enough aside to be a millionaire by 40.

One is an investment banker who worked extremely diligently and goal oriented since 18 to be exactly that and who never missed a day of work unless very sick, extremely disciplined and confident in own ability, most would say with a bit of a chip on the shoulder. Smart guy too, but not genius level.

The other is an early entry IT guy, journalist by education, but extremely smart, succeeds at just about everything. Is a chess grandmaster, published several books, scrabble champ, poker champ, avid runner, got into all kinds of new tech and mastered it very quickly and able to move quickly because of financial freedom already. Very high IQ.

The point is, all these self improvement books aside, you need to be exceptional to get rich. A guy with average intelligence and average creativity can't just will his way to wealth. You need to figure out what you are exceptional at and then work like a madman at that until you look around and you don't see many who are as exceptional as you.

I'm talking 'rich' here, not just 'well off' or 'doing ok'.

(11-29-2014 05:03 AM)SlickyBoy Wrote:  You had me until Kiyosaki's name showed up. That man is an abject fraud and lies about everything from his military record, his real estate deals to the very existence of "rich dad." This guy breaks it down the best.

But the rest of those books are solid.

The problem with Kiyosaki in my opinion is just that while he is a very good teacher for the layperson in thinking right about money and investments, his entire teachings could be taught in about 10-20 pages and not multiple books.