Post: #1

Curious what the opinion on this subject is at this forum.

How important are looks?

I see alot of talk about game around here but it's very vague. What is game exactly?

I also see alot of "well my friend is xyz and he is killing it". Although yet again, that doesn't really mean anything for anyone who is struggling and wants to learn.

And since I am asking for others opinions, I will share my own:

I think that looks is always the entry point, game is just closing the deal.

But without that entry point, I really don't understand the use of game.

In fact if you tried to "game" a girl when she isn't attracted or sending any positive signals in the first place, wouldn't that just look exceptionally try hard?

I don't really understand the creating attraction aspect of it, I only understand it in the context of capitalizing on what's already there and expanding it.

If a man is ugly and not naturally receiving any positive attention, how is he supposed to use game to compensate for that situation?

That is what I am curious about.

What is that process exactly?

Post: #2

Please use the search function...

Look vs Game 1
Look vs Game 2
The importance of your looks
Good-Looking Guy Game

(04-13-2016 12:18 AM)General Stalin Wrote:  This another looks vs game thread? Fuck. Search function.

Also theory is wack. Women don't think about babies, they think about 'gina tingles. C'mon now.

Post: #3

We need a sidebar like Reddit to point the peeps at for the common done to death topic foundations.

Post: #4

If you are talking about The West, looks can be a good entry point, particularly if you don't mind shopping down in physical attraction. There are a sea of 5s and 6s who've done virtually nothing to make themselves attractive who will melt for you if you are an 8+. But if you want to access your own SMV or higher, just approaching as a good-looking guy becomes harder because good-looking girls tend to have a lot of approaches and have a social life which allows them to scope out guy's other factors like reputation, social status, rough income, penis size etc. When you approach you're just a generic good-looking guy speaking to a girl who probably knows loads of guys who have other valuable attributes. The only tool to quickly catch her attention before someone else does is game. If you have other attributes like a high income or you are in an group of guys with a high reputation in your city, it's going to take a while to drop them in.

If your introduction point to a girl is through a high caste social group, looks can take a back burner as the girl will assume you have good characteristics.

For approaching I think game is not just for closing, it's for every second after the first few milliseconds in which she's pegged your physical attractiveness. After that it's down to your tongue to prove that you have some value to her beyond being a candidate. What that is depends on her desires. If a girl is just interested in having fun, being the center of attention, going places, consuming things - then being a good-looking guy who can excite her will have a good chance of working. Telling her you run a business that employs 50 people may mean nothing to her. But if the girl is looking for a stable guy, the exciting guy may be seen as irresponsible and a waste of her time, while the business owner has serious merit for her desires.

If you're going to a low-income country, then things change again. White, Western guys are a prize in many of these areas due to big differences in income, treatment of women and perceptions of physical traits etc. The average income in The Philippines about $250, has higher rates of violence against women and general perception of unchivalrous men, the average height of men is 5'4", 4.3" average penis size, they also have an inferiority complex to The West and European features - if you look at any form of Filipino popular culture it tends to be dominated by the country's minority of more Mediterranean looking people.

If you are a good-looking, 6 foot guy getting off the plane in The Phillipines you are automatically head and shoulders above most of the population by association to a culture that is generally seen as superior and materially more wealthy. You have considerably more to offer them than they are likely to expect not just in their daily life, but their entire life. This is why so many of the guys on this forum are in such countries.

It's all about providing value in a market where everyone wants to get the highest value they can.

Post: #5

Taking a look over those threads now.

If I have some things I'd like to say, is it better to put it here or to bump them?

I'm new here so how this forum works is still alien to me and I'm not really looking to be rude or disruptive.

(06-17-2017 04:09 PM)blck Wrote:  

Also, sorry.

Post: #6

(06-17-2017 06:29 PM)Preston Blood Wrote:  Taking a look over those threads now.

If I have some things I'd like to say, is it better to put it here or to bump them?

I'm new here so how this forum works is still alien to me and I'm not really looking to be rude or disruptive.

(06-17-2017 04:09 PM)blck Wrote:  

Also, sorry.

Welcome aboard !

Post: #7

They're very important indeed, in my experience. Not to say that one can't get laid and still be on the ugly side, but good looks make things infinitely easier.

And I tend to agree with your observations ; I always thought of it like ''' 'Game' is what you use to close the deal with girls that are already attracted to you''

I think you can be very handsome and struggle to get laid if you have absolutely zero game. So that alone shows that game exists.

But if a girl looks at you and thinks ''Uggghh....he's not my type at all! I like tall guys with nice cheekbones. He's ugly'' then all of the 'game' in the world won't make her attracted

Post: #8

Quote:Welcome aboard !

Thanks.

Quote:They're very important indeed, in my experience. Not to say that one can't get laid and still be on the ugly side, but good looks make things infinitely easier.

And I tend to agree with your observations ; I always thought of it like ''' 'Game' is what you use to close the deal with girls that are already attracted to you''

I think you can be very handsome and struggle to get laid if you have absolutely zero game. So that alone shows that game exists.

But if a girl looks at you and thinks ''Uggghh....he's not my type at all! I like tall guys with nice cheekbones. He's ugly'' then all of the 'game' in the world won't make her attracted

I understand how to get girls in the context of they are already open to me.

I just don't really understand it in the context of there is no interest and you use "game" to create it like magic. I am not saying it couldn't exist, just something I really know nothing of to be honest.

I only get it in the context of managing and closing on existing interest.

Usually if a girl closes off to me then it's finished in my mind and I leave it at that. And in fact I feel like doing anything other than that is actually making your position even worse.

I just get it in terms of she is open to me and then I push and close off that.

I'm not sure any of the posted threads actually answered my question either. They were kind of vague, so even though the topic has been done to death apparently, I still am not really seeing a clear explanation of what "game" is precisely in the context of a ugly or even average man with no natural interest.

Post: #9

I get accused of making "barnyard" analogies but I view this idea like a racetrack. Looks are the car and game is the driver of said car. We are trying to help like the pit crew and someone like Roosh could be considered a crew chief. I mean it's far easier for a professional driver to make a finely tuned race car go but they could get a POS to do things the average person couldn't do even with the race car.

Post: #10

Quote:but they could get a POS to do things the average person couldn't do even with the race car.

What is the extent of that though?

Like as in get hot girls while being average or ugly?

I am just saying if a guy isn't getting attention from those or the girls he wants, is there anything he can do in a individual interaction to change it?

And if so what is that exactly?

Post: #11

Quote:Quote:
but they could get a POS to do things the average person couldn't do even with the race car.

What is the extent of that though?

Like as in get hot girls while being average or ugly?

I am just saying if a guy isn't getting attention from those or the girls he wants, is there anything he can do in a individual interaction to change it?

And if so what is that exactly?

Yes, I mean getting girls with suboptimal looks that you CANNOT change. Keeping with the racing theme, you have to change how you navigate internally. The girl is going to assume if you look a certain way, then you must be a certain way. You must implicately show her you don't find the mold, causing her to reevaluate her perception of you. Good game can cause a reset in her thinking. Reset results will vary.

Of course, you have to approach her. You can't assume she is passing out attention. You have to demand attention by going to her. You'll never get to point B if you never leave A.

Overview:

1. Reset yourself.
2. Approach.
3. Cause her to reset.

As for the rest, now you want tips on driving your car which can be done with more context. What do you believe is your limitation(s)?

Post: #12

If a guy is below average/ugly he is severely limited. I dont care what self help guru PUA whatever says otherwise. women in western countries with good economies do not want ugly out of shape dudes. No amount of charisma or "game" is going to save him.

Now where things do change is when a man can improve himself to the 6-7 range through gym style posture grooming etc. Once youve hit above average appearances, your game can carry you the rest of the way depending on you of course.

Basically theres no need to look like a jacked male supermodel (it helps a shitload of course). Get simple clean well fitted clothes, work on your posture, get a good hair cut, whiten teeth, tan a bit, get under 15pct body fat and start working on your approaches and social life.

Post: #13

I've known some fairly ugly dudes that couldn't swing their dick in a crowded room without fucking three women. Those SOBs had game.

Here's the thing. You can be good looking without game and snag a girl. You can even close with a little luck. In fact, you could probably get that girl to commit to you temporarily because she wants to parade you around like a prize poodle in front of her friends. Meanwhile she'll get you to pay for everything and provide you with starfish sex every now and then until the revulsion of being in proximity to something that only looks like a man forces her to cheat on you and treat you like shit until either you leave or she genuinely hates you so much that she actually dumps you (for nooooo reeeeason boo hoo!).

Game is what gets your dick in her ass and her mouth. Game is what puts her on her knees then her back then her feet then her hands then up against the wall. Game is what gets her in lingerie. Game is what gets her to bring a friend.

And game of course is a part of everything else you do in life, from getting good service to negotiating the best deals.

Pity the fool who has looks but refuses to learn game. He might be seen with gorgeous women but behind closed doors he's quite miserable. And his looks will fool him into thinking that he's successful with women when in reality he's barely gotten a peek into the sea of sexual conquest that man can plunder.

If I had to choose between looks and game I would choose game every time.

Every.

Time.

Post: #14

In the West looks is what gets you sex....just hop on Tinder and you have it. There is also a stigma in dating a below average looking guy because girls compete between each other and love to feel superior with their girlfriends. This is true especially for girls under 25yo that are good looking.

In poorer country you can get success by game, confidence, western status ecc....so in the end it's up to you. A below average looking guy will get a hotter girl in a country like Ukraine, Poland or Russia than in Australia, US, Canada, Germany, Italy, Spain ecc

Post: #15

(06-22-2017 07:23 PM)Preston Blood Wrote:  I understand how to get girls in the context of they are already open to me.

I just don't really understand it in the context of there is no interest and you use "game" to create it like magic. I am not saying it couldn't exist, just something I really know nothing of to be honest.

I only get it in the context of managing and closing on existing interest.

Usually if a girl closes off to me then it's finished in my mind and I leave it at that. And in fact I feel like doing anything other than that is actually making your position even worse.

I just get it in terms of she is open to me and then I push and close off that.

I'm not sure any of the posted threads actually answered my question either. They were kind of vague, so even though the topic has been done to death apparently, I still am not really seeing a clear explanation of what "game" is precisely in the context of a ugly or even average man with no natural interest.

It's odd. You're far from the first person to read lots of pickup books (i'm assuming you have!) etc and then, even after that ask yourself ''What exactly IS game?!! - what EXACTLY do I do to make a girl like me!?'
I guess this is partly because of the way lots of material go into such ridiculous detail over little things or spend so much time talking about the theroy of direct vs indirect etc, and there's also lots of differences of opinion, and you come away just feeling confused.

On seddit, I often notice a guy saying he never gets any attention. He's read all the books. Bought all teh products. Made loads of appraoches. yet teh advice is often ''Learn game, bro!'' - It's like, hasn't he already learnt it! What more can he do?

Maybe someone else who knows more about this stuff can answer your questions regarding what 'game' actually is IN PRACTICE!

Basically, you see a hot girl. You are not remotely handsome yourself. You have a giant nose and a bald head and you're 5ft tall. What exactly do you do to make her want to bang you!!?

If *I* had to give you an answer, i'd say we're talking about things like teasing her. Being fun. Showing humour. Being kind of carefree. Being charismatic. Showing some sexual intent that you calibrate based on her reaction. Demonstrating confidence through things like body language.

I've been a student of game for a while now and my results have been bad, (but I still believe in 'game' at least to some extent) - With that in mind Maybe someone else more knowledgeable can answer your main question in a better way!

I was on low the other night after trying to game a gorgeous young girl I approached in a bar who, after a while, started eye fucking the tall barman who looked like the Diet coke man.

She kept telling me how hot he was. I tried to 'agree and amplify' (game concept) in case it was some sort of shit test and was like ''Yeah, i'd bang him! You want me to ask for his number?!''. I may have passed the test, but I still struggled badly from that point. Partly a blow to the self esteem knowing that guy could have banged her with 2 words. Partly a little bit lost as to how to 'progress' the interaction. I'd established some kino. We were having fun. But I couldn't find a way to shoehorn in more intent without it looking uncalibrated, partly brcause I felt as though maybe her telling me about the hot guy was her way of saying ''lookswise, im' out of your league'' and trying to let me down gently, lol. This made showing more intent feel almost awkward in my mind

Post: #16

Smells like troll spirit in here but oh well if nothing else it gives me an outlet to put some ideas out there. It sounds like OP wants one on one advice on specific game techniques magical routines to use. I can say this because I am not back there yet but the spirit of game needs to be absorbed not the letter. Delivering a routine or whatever you do should be fulfilling for you, not strictly for a result. I mean I could give you a routine or give advice like be fun with 6s or below and creat tension with 7s or above but I can't really give much else because the process is different for everybody and we don't know what makes the OP tick to give him what he needs.

Subterfuge - it sounds like you made a decent attempt. With pure 20/20 hindsight and not being there, the only thing I would have said was "I don't do devil's threeways" or something like that. She would have denied or been in shock. You press the issue by saying what was the talk about the guy for then (after all you are not a homo) and either force her to apologize or get her to state her sexual intentions towards you. In other words artfully make tension. I have done and seen it where something like that leads to makeouts or bangs. Evens if she says no sex, subterfuge wins because he doesn't waste time with her.

Post: #17

It's scientifically proven that all guys who couldn't score 8 or above on hotornot.com are virgins regardless of age.

Sorry, OP.

Post: #18

I'm not actually trolling, I felt like it was a perfectly legitimate question and discussion or else I wouldn't have posted it.

I guess if the topic gets banned then so be it, but there is a whole lot more we could discuss here and take this alot further. I'm actually trying to stay chilled out and not get too aggressive about it.

By the way I am referring to the USA here just for clarification.

Quote:If *I* had to give you an answer, i'd say we're talking about things like teasing her. Being fun. Showing humor. Being kind of carefree. Being charismatic. Showing some sexual intent that you calibrate based on her reaction. Demonstrating confidence through things like body language.

I get all that, and I do think that there is game, but I just don't understand it if you don't have a opening in the first place, which is non game related to me. IE out of your control in a given moment if you don't already have it established to begin with.

E.g. you are good looking, you have status, you have money, to use the classic LMS formula you have something outside the individual interaction which gives you the opening to begin with.

An opening means the girl has a level of attraction before you even talk to her + you are lucky and she happens to be open to a new guy at that specific moment in time for whatever reason.

Basically attraction + availability = success. And that's where game makes sense to me. However in that case it still requires the other two, if you remove either one or both, then it doesn't work anymore.

I was saying I only understand game in that context, not in the absence of it, where you still get attraction going where there is none to begin with already.

Kind of like taking a spark to a flame (game) vs no spark to a flame.

I'm saying, does game exist outside of pre existing attraction, and if so, how does it work, in detail.

And my question was, what does game look like, if it exists, in the absence of that.

That's my current interpretation of it at least, but I'm always learning new things.

Quote:What exactly IS game?!!

Post: #19

Your thought-system is flawed that why your point of view collide with others's.

I sense that what you're calling opening means IOI so starting from there IOI can be provoked, even enforced.
Forcing yourself on a girl while she didn't even saw you can spark interest in her then before even attraction, if you have enough knowledge in women's psychology and are socially aware you can play the Game without even getting attraction first

Post: #20

I was not using opening to mean IOI's.

I just meant general receptiveness or openness, more like a general sense rather than a specific signal. And it can fluctuate from moment to moment.

If there is no attraction to begin with, then how do you develop it, which was my original question.

I can understand getting interest from a non attracted girl too, I just don't understand the translation at some point to attraction or how that would be accomplished.

For example you talk to some girl, you have a amazing conversation, she thinks you are really interesting, but then you go to close or escalate, and she blows you off, and you realize there is just no sexual pathway there.

I also only really understand it in terms of the guy escalating, I don't really know how else to get to a sexual interaction than that. By that I mean, you have to close or make a move sooner or later.

So I'm just trying to understand how you develop this attraction in a given interaction cause to me it would currently seem like if the girl doesn't already have it, then regardless of the interest she has in the interaction, as soon you try to push, she will just brush you off.

And as far as pushing I feel like you can't get anywhere without that wheter you do it early on or later on, since girls generally don't do that on their own most of the time, at most they drop some subtle hints and then you have to follow through.

So how do you develop the attraction and then close off it, if a girl is giving you nothing to work with?

Post: #21

You don't have "amazing conversation" with women: You tease & challenge them then you escalate.
Everything she says is not good/smart/funny enough for you, you make her chase, look up to you for validation because you're the challenge for her.
If a girl is giving you nothing to work with, you engineer that, you create emotional turmoil & drama for her to feed on.

Quote:The way to a woman's heart is by challenging everything she says.

Anyway you need to understand the subtleties and that's too much theory for the day...

Post: #22

Thanks for that post and the links, it's something to look over.

As far as it being theory, I talk to girls pretty much everyday so I'd be happy to try it out if I had a new approach.

It's saturday and I've already been doing it all day in fact although now I'm ready to chill out and go hang out with a buddy hopefully.

I just feel like it would need to get more explicit to really have a useful discussion although I haven't checked out all those links yet except the youtube one with the 40 year old virgin.

Which was pretty hilarious, although I do have to say, I think if most unattractive guys did that the girl would just look at them like they were insane and it would be weird instead of a flowing conversation where this hot girl suddenly jumps all over his dick after the first one he walks up to.

It just seems like a hard balance to walk without seeming try hard or blowing your "I don't care" cover, especially when combined with the fact that you still need to be the escalator.

Another thing I've noticed too is that all girls are pretty different so what might work amazing on one chick can be extremely unattractive to another and vice versa.

Where I see a potential problem just off the top of my head is the same deal, even if you get a reaction from that stuff, as soon as you go in for the close or to push, you still get rebuffed anyways, regardless of the drama or emotions you were creating or vice versa.

To me those pushing choke points are critical to get anywhere and I don't really know how to score without them.

Post: #23

Looks and game matter. The hotter the girl, the more they matter. Looks are necessary but insufficient above certain hotness of a girl. How much hotness and game required will vary depending on a set of variables, i.e., country, race (yours and girl's), social strata and milieu, age, ovulation cycle, experience, self-esteem, family background, education, intelligence, money, etc.

In short, both matter but they aren't set in stone. They are fluid. An attractive girl living in Hollywood will aspire to more attractive men than a poor girl living on the outskirts of Kiev. A lonely, tourist girl will be much more open to game than a girl in her hometown with a rich social circle.

Even shorter, if you're not attractive, it's a tough grind. Game will ease off some of the grind but it will be nonetheless hard work.

Post: #24

I don't really think there is one approach or strategy at all. Of course there are general things you can do, but as far as anything that works on most women most of the time? I don't buy that at all. Definitely there is no universal "game" or even close.

I am not sure if we even know what each other are talking about in this thread when we say "game". It's a very vague term that has a general meaning, but that's about it.

I think it's important to draw a distinction between game in the individual interaction sense and the overall sense.

E.g. what you might say or do with a single girl specifically directed at her vs say going to a club with a bunch of cool friends where you have connections and status and hook ups and then creating a party there that draws girls in as a result who you end up hooking up with from that.

That's not really an individual tactic it's more like an overall value and it's more like status to me than it is "game" in the conventional sense.

By the way since Distant Light was posted in here I'd say that's more what he is doing, rather than being "fun" or "hard to get" per se. He might be doing those things, but it's not in the individual interaction sense.

Definitely looks matter a ton although no doubt there are ways for ugly men, even really ugly ones, to legitimately compensate. Although that might be more what I said above such as more of a status thing or money or etc, not some game tactics really. Those are still forms of legitimate value to me and ones you can't fake either. You have to either actually have it or not and if you don't, you can't game your way out of it.

Maybe a better thread title would have been "Value vs game".

I think it's still like I said, game might be useful for closing the openings you already have, but you still need legitimate value to create them to begin with, although that could certainly not necessarily be looks even though it is one of the elements to varying degrees.

If you don't have those openings though, which I don't believe can be created in a individual interaction either for the most part that I know of, they have to be developed outside of it, then no amount of game is ever going to take you over the edge.

Post: #25

(06-28-2017 04:09 AM)Preston Blood Wrote:  I don't really think there is one approach or strategy at all. Of course there are general things you can do, but as far as anything that works on most women most of the time? I don't buy that at all. Definitely there is no universal "game" or even close.
[...]

I do not agree with you and I'll try to explain properly, you know that PC bullshit, that safe space, those white knights, the government, they all work together for only one thing: Block you to trigger, engage, challenge and fuck women, in one word they don't want them to react to you that's your only goal when approaching a woman.

Example1
Example2

Women can "seem" bothered by your presence or words but the fact that they noticed mean that you made their inside tingle so you already have 50% of your dick in their pussies, that's why I told you before "you don't have amazing convo with women: You tease & challenge."

You don't draw dinstinction between game in the individual interaction sense and the overall sense, it has already been divided into night/day/online game but let me be real here: Every one who follow the logic of divided Game has thrown himself in a pit, at the opposite those who understand that words (rhetoric) convey meanings, values but most importantly emotions (lawyers, preacher, pimps or anyone who is goodd with words) and sub-communicate values that make them drown into pussy juice...

Let's put things back in context: The word "Game" come from an analogy from actual Way to manage a team, from the black pimp/player world. The fact that you can't grasp it totally is normal os let me quote an excerpt from the great book from Mickey ROYAL.

Quote:Have you ever watched TV or a sports news station and you hear that a major sports team was bought or sold for 100 - 300 million dollars?
If you keep up with sports, you can name twenty athletes off the top of your head with contracts ranging from 10 to 100 million dollars.
Now, ask yourself how many athletes or former athletes own teams?
It's obviously not an economic issue, but a psychological one. The athletes don't own teams because they know their place. It would upset the balance of the system. But before I go into the history and mechanics of the game, let me introduce you to the principle players.
Don't look at pimping as anything other than what it is. The only game to play. There is only one game and that's pimping. You have always had and you will always have the employers and the employees. You have drones, worker bees and a Queen bee. You have the owner of a basketball team, you have basketball players. You have a coach and you have fans and spectators.
Let's take the owner and match his characteristics with Chapter One's description. The owner is usually quiet, stays in the background, is mysterious and, of course, powerful. He is seldom seen and is almost never seen with his players. He keeps his distance from all aspects of the game that don't directly concern him. He's there for the draft (when the Ho chooses) and after that the player deals with the coach and agents and other players. The owner most likely has never been a basketball player.
The Owner puts out the least amount of effort and reaps the highest reward, front the labor of others. Is this fair? Yes! Why is this fair? The owner is the only one taking an irreversible risk.
If a player is on a losing team, the player can ask to be traded. This holds true for the coach as well. The fans and cheerleaders can go root for another team, but the owner can't, He can't jump ship. He can only swim or sink with it. Therefore, it is imperative that the owner keeps his "game tight". The tighter the game, the brighter the light. The brighter the light, the better the players (hos). The better the players, the better the fans (tricks). Loyal fans mean cash for an owner.
An average owner will draft a superstar and just have him play sports. More money is made off of shoes, hats and jerseys than the game.
A player will grow bored if his full potential is being overlooked and choose another team. An above average owner will take a superstar and work him until he drops-not just sports, but also TV, movies, endorsements, etc.
A player's time is limited, so therefore a good owner and a well-schooled player both sell as much as they can while they can. They both know that with every ho there comes a time when the tricks stop biting. It the owner is the pimp and the players are hot, then what's the coach?
The coach is your bottom woman: you can't pimp effectively without one.
The owner is never seen with the players. Shaq and Dr. Jerry Buss don't hang out at clubs together. Such activity would interfere with his ability to delegate authority. The coach is the direct line between the owner and the players. The coach, who usually is an ex-player, is obeyed like a god. The coach is your recruiter.
The fans are tricks-fools that support the whole Industry. We'll meet them all one at a time in the next chapter and you will we where you fit in.

DL got his own way to interact, he sumarized it by "Give them the opportunity to meet you" but he got his girl stolen from him by some PUA.

You keep posting because you don't have the education and you don't understand the mindset to have so much women in your life that you wouldn't have time to get on internet.

Preston, All I can advise you to do is to read LINUX thread: LINUX Bangs Colombia -- A 90 Day Journey (NSFW), WestIndianArchie Appreciation thread 1 and thread 2 because none of what I write will change your mindset but brainwashing yourself with some of the greatest Game Litterature will probably change your view on this matter.

Cheers

EDIT: Mystery already reverse engineered interactions with women some you might want to read the Mystery Method to get the big picture and then you can desensitivize yourself to become almost a natural player (stop at 2:33) if it's your plan