The Beast1 
Innovative Casanova
Posts: 7,540
Joined: May 2013
Reputation: 81
|
RE: Orthodox Conversion
(12-11-2017 09:45 PM)Nacho Wrote: TheBeast1 I think the problem lays at the feet of 'western' Christianity, where everything needs to be dissected into an a+b=c formula. As we say in the east, some things are better left a mystery.
I feel you on that Nacho, but you have to look at the culture that lead to the reformation. Do you really think a bunch of Germans were going to be satisfied with such an answer?
(12-11-2017 09:45 PM)Nacho Wrote: The Orthodox would look at the faith vs. works debate as a faulty premise to begin with. Think along the lines that the two components as being inseparable from each other.
The Protestants come up with this silly notion of sola fide (faith alone), but yet you will find scant evidence pertaining to such in scripture. The bible never mentions 'faith alone' anywhere, it's a twisting of scripture in order to fit a preconceived theological belief system (calvinism).
Being pedantic, but it was the Lutherans who came up with Sola Fide. The Calvinists came later.
I had a great read that my pastor gave me from my confirmation that summed up the arguments for Sola Fide. Instead of typing it up however, the wikipedia entry sums it up sufficiently. Worth a read, because of the historical background into the:
Quote:Justification in Lutheranism[edit]
From 1510 to 1520, Luther lectured on the Psalms and the books of Hebrews, Romans, and Galatians. As he studied these portions of the Bible, he came to view the use of terms such as penance and righteousness by the Roman Catholic Church in new ways. (See Romans 4:1-5, Galatians 3:1-7, and Genesis 15:6.) He became convinced that the church was corrupt in its ways and had lost sight of what he saw as several of the central truths of Christianity, the most important of which, for Luther, was the doctrine of justification—God's act of declaring a sinner righteous—by faith alone through God's grace. He began to teach that salvation or redemption is a gift of God's grace, attainable only through faith in Jesus.[1]
"This one and firm rock, which we call the doctrine of justification," insisted Martin Luther, "is the chief article of the whole Christian doctrine, which comprehends the understanding of all godliness."[2] He also called this doctrine the articulus stantis et cadentis ecclesiae ("article of the standing and falling of the church"): "…if this article stands, the Church stands; if it falls, the Church falls."[3] Lutherans follow Luther in this when they call this doctrine "the material principle" of theology in relation to the Bible, which is "the formal principle."[4] They believe justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ's righteousness alone is the gospel, the core of the Christian faith around which all other Christian doctrines are centered and based.
Luther came to understand justification as entirely the work of God. When God's righteousness is mentioned in the gospel, it is God's action of declaring righteous the unrighteous sinner who has faith in Jesus Christ.[5] The righteousness by which the person is justified (declared righteous) is not his own (theologically, proper righteousness) but that of another, Christ (alien righteousness). "That is why faith alone makes someone just and fulfills the law," said Luther. "Faith is that which brings the Holy Spirit through the merits of Christ."[6] Thus faith, for Luther, is a gift from God, and "...a living, bold trust in God's grace, so certain of God's favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it."[7] This faith grasps Christ's righteousness and appropriates it for the believer. He explained his concept of "justification" in the Smalcald Articles:
The first and chief article is this: Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, died for our sins and was raised again for our justification (Romans 3:24-25). He alone is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world (John 1:29), and God has laid on Him the iniquity of us all (Isaiah 53:6). All have sinned and are justified freely, without their own works and merits, by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, in His blood (Romans 3:23-25). This is necessary to believe. This cannot be otherwise acquired or grasped by any work, law or merit. Therefore, it is clear and certain that this faith alone justifies us ... Nothing of this article can be yielded or surrendered, even though heaven and earth and everything else falls (Mark 13:31).[8]
Traditionally, Lutherans have taught forensic (or legal) justification, a divine verdict of acquittal pronounced on the believing sinner. God declares the sinner to be "not guilty" because Christ has taken his place, living a perfect life according to God's law and suffering for his sins. For Lutherans, justification is in no way dependent upon the thoughts, words, and deeds of those justified through faith alone in Christ. The new obedience that the justified sinner renders to God through sanctification follows justification as a consequence, but is not part of justification.[9]
Lutherans believe that individuals receive this gift of salvation through faith alone.[10] Saving faith is the knowledge of,[11] acceptance of,[12] and trust[13] in the promise of the Gospel.[14] Even faith itself is seen as a gift of God, created in the hearts of Christians[15] by the work of the Holy Spirit through the Word[16] and Baptism.[17] Faith is seen as an instrument that receives the gift of salvation, not something that causes salvation.[18] Thus, Lutherans reject the "decision theology" which is common among modern evangelicals.
For Lutherans, justification provides the power by which Christians can grow in holiness. Such improvement comes about in the believer only after he has become a new creation in Christ through Holy Baptism. This improvement is not completed in this life: Christians are always "saint and sinner at the same time" (simul iustus et peccator)[19]—saints because they are holy in God's eyes, for Christ's sake, and do works that please him; sinners because they continue to sin until death.
Epistle of James[edit]
Lutheran Confessions reject the Catholic position that the Epistle of James contradicts the Lutheran teaching on Justification.[20][21] They interpret the verses in James 2: "we are justified/declared righteous by people when they see the good works we do as a result of our faith and they conclude that our faith is sincere."[22] They conclude:
Paul is writing to people who said that faith in Jesus alone does not save a person, but one has to also obey God's law in order to be justified (Gal 3:3, 5:4). To counter the false idea that what we do in keeping the law must be added to faith in what Christ did for us. Paul often emphasizes in his letters (esp. Galatians, Romans, Colossians) that we are saved by grace through faith alone. James is writing to people who felt that believing in Jesus saved a person, but that having faith did not mean that a person necessarily would keep God's commandments out of love for God (James 2:14, 17). To show that faith is not really faith unless it leads a person to thank God for salvation in a life of glad and willing obedience to God's holy will. James emphasized that a faith which did not show that it was living faith was really not faith at all.[23]
A Lutheran exegesis further points out that James is simply reaffirming Jesus' teaching in Matthew 7:16 regarding works as a fruit of salvation, instead of a cause,[24] and that in the tenth verse of the same chapter, James too denies works as a means to obtain forgiveness:
James here (verse 10) also shoots down the false doctrine of work-righteousness. The only way to be free of sin is to keep the law perfectly and in its entirety. If we offend it in the slightest, tiniest little way, we are guilty of all. Thank God that He sent Jesus to fulfill the Law in its entirety for us[25]
(12-11-2017 09:45 PM)Nacho Wrote: It's ironic Martin Luther never looked eastward, he would have found the in-tact original faith in the eastern half of the church. Instead he went with wild tangents in trying to reinvent the wheel.
You'd be surprised. Marty was in fact very familiar with the orthodox church and held you guys in high esteem. Remember that Martin Luther and his compatriots were living in a time where the ruling establishment was very intertwined with the Catholic church. The reformation was really in its essence an effort to overthrow the power of the Catholic Church.
A fun look at the history: http://www.christianitytoday.com/history...hurch.html
Quote:What was the attitude of the reformers (Martin Luther in particular) toward the Eastern Orthodox Church? Was the idea of becoming part of the Eastern church entertained?
Luther was generally positive toward the Eastern Orthodox church, especially because it rejected many of the things he most disliked about the Roman Catholic church: clerical celibacy, papal supremacy, purgatory, indulgences, and Communion by bread alone. He frequently referred to the beliefs and practices of the "Greek church," as he called it, as evidence that Catholics had deviated from principles upon which Christians formerly agreed.
Luther never attempted to build a bridge to the Eastern church, but some of his followers did. Philipp Melanchthon worked with Demetrios Mysos, a deacon sent by the patriarch of Constantinople to find out about the new religious movement in Germany, to complete a Greek translation/paraphrase of the Augsburg Confession, called the Augustana Graeca. Mysos was supposed to take the document back to Constantinople, but he died on the journey.
Some Lutheran theologians at Tubingen tried to establish an even closer connection. The "Eastern Orthodoxy" entry in The Oxford Encyclopedia of the Reformation, edited by Hans J. Hillerbrand, reports:
The Lutherans were convinced that they, rather than Rome, were the true apostolic and catholic church, and thus to establish contact with the venerable Greek church, to enlist its support against the papacy, and perhaps even to enter into communion with this apostolic church would have been a sensational victory. Thus in 1575 they sent the Augustana Graeca to Patriarch Jeremias II (d. 1595), asking his opinion. There ensued over the next six years a friendly but candid exchange of extensive doctrinal correspondence (three letters from both sides totaling over four hundred printed pages). Prominent topics discussed included the authority of scripture and tradition; the filioque; the nature of the church; grace, free will, and synergism; justification, faith, and good works; eucharistic practices; the priesthood and the ministry; prayers for the departed; the invocation of saints; feasts and fasting; and monasticism. Except for those doctrines and customs of the Roman church that the East had never accepted, the changes in church teaching and polity advocated by the Lutherans were rejected by the Orthodox, who thus implicitly agreed on most issues with the Catholics.
(12-11-2017 09:45 PM)Nacho Wrote: As for your example above with Abraham, there is no contradiction. All christians believe we act on faith from God. It's ultimately by the grace of God we are all saved.
I think we're beating around the bush here.
What I like a ton about Christianity is a common linking message that unites many different people under a common banner of salvation. The cornucopia of Christian denominations are really different in the most inconsequential of ways. At the end of the day, we all believe that Jesus is the path to salvation and that is what unites us.
If you feel a connection to the cultural traditions of the orthodox service, by all means, keep at it. I had a great time sitting in on a service at the Kykkos Monastery in Cyprus.
The church is really a liquid that changes shape depending on its cultural vessel.
(This post was last modified: 12-11-2017 11:41 PM by The Beast1.)
|
|
Home
RooshV.com
Search (Via Forum)
Member List
![[-]](images/collapse.gif)
The following 2 users Like Dragan's post:
![[Image: troll-face-meme.png]](http://static.freemake.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/troll-face-meme.png)
